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DAF Owners Club :: General :: DAF discussion :: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
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pyoorkate
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Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Thread Started on Apr 22, 2009, 7:53am »
So, my Autobook manual says .016" to .020" for the points gap - it'd closed up almost completely and the car ran like crap; I tweaked it to this, and while she's now idling smoothly and pulling away smoothly (unlike the two short journeys before where the journey was somewhat embarrassingly nearly-stall-misfire-and-running atrociously), but the top-speed has fallen from somewhere above 70 to somewhere near 60.

Before I start fiddling with anything else, is that the right value, or is that another autobook special?

--
Kate WE
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #1 on Apr 22, 2009, 8:19am »
hi kate, between 0.40mm and 0.50mm (i think) also check your timing
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #2 on Apr 22, 2009, 10:37am »
That gap range would be correct Kate. :D

Provided that everything else is within specs, including Valve settings and Idle adjustment.

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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #3 on Apr 22, 2009, 11:26am »
That gap range is fine, Kate, but you must] reset the timing after you've set them. Even opening them from 16 to 20 thou (one end of "the range" to the other) will advance the timing by about 3 degrees. If you've opened from (say) 5 thou to 16 you could have thrown the timing by anything up to 10 degrees or so. They don't seem all that critical on timing but 10 degrees is more than enough to have an effect :)
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #4 on Apr 22, 2009, 2:16pm »
Ah, I'm used to the minor where you don't have to worry. Gives me something to do tomorrow then. I'll do the timing so, since it was essentially no-gap to probably 18thou. That would explain the attrocious effect on the top speed though! :)
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #5 on Apr 22, 2009, 9:43pm »
hi kate.

when i set up my 44, i set the points first, then the timing.
then i set the petrol mix.
i did the timing and mix "by ear" as i didn't have the right tools at the time. when i set the mix, the timing had to be altered a touch to match it. then i had to adjust the mix a touch to allow for the timing alteration. about an hour later after doing one then the other, the engine ran like a watch, starts on the button and does 40+mpg and 80+mph.
the settings have to be VERY close as you need every ounce of power from the small engine.
setting up can take a while but once they are set, you just need to check the points every now and again.
fortunately you can set everything without plugging the car into a computer like the new stuff. ;)

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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #6 on Apr 23, 2009, 12:27pm »
Cheers... that seems to have sorted it. I'll check it over again in a week or so, see if it's all right. The idle setting is now a bit low, but the rest seems okay. She pulls much better, and in the slightly under one mile stretch of motorway I used for a quick test she got past 70 and was still pulling well ('s uphill too, so that's quite a change). She's still not quite as perky as Jejy - but Jejy's got the clutch-shoe-destroying drum, which may explain the 'perky' take-off.

Just need to sort out Jejy now ;-)
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #7 on Apr 23, 2009, 10:53pm »
Hi,of course the most accurate way to set contact breakers is by using a Dwell Meter as it takes account of the wear in the the distibutor etc. starider.
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #8 on Apr 24, 2009, 9:51am »
Maplins do some pretty reasonable digital dwell / tacho / general electrical meters. Not a huge fan of digital on these cos of the way the figures tend to "flicker" but try fining an analogue one nowadays!
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #9 on Apr 24, 2009, 10:15am »
OOI - if you do use a dwell meter, most of them only seem to offer 4/6/8 cylinder - is there an easy numeric conversion to whatever it is for a 2 cylinder?
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #10 on Apr 24, 2009, 10:31am »
Take the 4 cyl reading and double it :)

Or 6 cyl and times by 3 ;)

Strangely, mine offers 3,4,6 and 8 cyl but not 2!
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #11 on Apr 24, 2009, 9:43pm »
hi.

my dwell angle meter will apparently do 2,3,4,6 and 8.
i bought it in a boot sale for 50p.
dont know if it works yet. will have to try it sometime.

for cheap analogue meters try the auto jumbles.
for a bigger chalenge, try finding a car you can use a dwell angle meter on. :D :D

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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #12 on Apr 25, 2009, 9:19am »
[image] [image] [image] [image]

Done that before Mate.


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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #13 on Apr 25, 2009, 11:48am »
hi.

we have probably all done that at some point.
i found a cigarette pack works better on minis as it is slightly thicker.
should work on the minor as well kate.

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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #14 on Apr 26, 2009, 8:34am »
Notes that self is dizzy mare; recalls that somewhere in her collection of tools is a timing strobe; because she bought one to change the minor to electronic ignition. Will find it and fish it out later.

Incidentally. my manual, iirc, shows two sets of marks on the crankshaft pulley - one crosses both sides of the pulley, the other only on one side is below, and it used that one to set the timing.

My crankshaft, if I'm stood on the offside looking at it, has the line across both sides of the pulley above the one which is only on one side of the pulley. I opted to set it using the lower of the two markings (which I'm assuming is 5 deg before TDC (again, iirc, I'm at work and away from the manual)). Is that the right marking?
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #15 on Apr 26, 2009, 11:53pm »
Hi,isn't it amazing how much comment can arise from a one-liner? great! starider.
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #16 on Apr 27, 2009, 9:48am »
Hrm, I had a little compare of the two cars yesterday; I'm going to take Jejy to work today, so I'll see what her performance is actually like, but their timings are vastly different. I'm fairly certain Vixy's set by the book. The timing strobe shows her spark to be igniting at the mark I'm assuming is 5deg BTDC, nice and stable and steady.

Jejy, idling somewhat faster, appears to be running at somewhere around 20(!) deg BTDC (assuming I'm reading the strobe right, which given that I've only used it once (possibly twice) before is quite possibly wrong**). My recollection and my quick around-the-block suggests that Jejy's somewhat more pokey than Vixy... so... uh... anyone want to point out to the dizzy mare where she's going wrong?

** Last time I did this, on the Minor, it explained why she'd been running so attrociously (25 deg BTDC) and her performance did improve dramatically when I set it correctly, but I also threw in the optical ignition at the same time...
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #17 on Apr 27, 2009, 11:43am »
One point to bear in mind is, if you have two marks on the pulley then one is TDC and the other is 5 degrees after TDC. This is for the later (mid '71 on) engines with emission control. Static timing is supposed to be with the 5 degree AFTER mark lined up with the joint in the crank - Autodata don't cover this well and I ended up getting confirmation off John the Bear about a year ago.

As for the "better with lots of advance", this could be for a number of reasons:

If the timing was set static (ie: engine not running) and the idle throttle is set a little too wide (would give high idle speed) then you might be getting some vacuum advance at idle - disconnect and plug the vacuum pipe to the distributor and check again. If it's dropped back to about right then that's yer reason.

If the centrifugal advance in the distributor is faulty (stuck) then setting standard timing at idle will give abysmal performance at high speed. It's possible that someone's set it for best on-road behaviour in the past then tweaked the idle mix and throttle to cope with the bad idle this would produce - you'd certainly end up needing the idle speed faster than normal! Set up your timing light and see if the mark advances more when you rev the engine. If it doesn't then the centrifugal advance is sticking or broken. Apparently the weight pivots can break on some of these dizzys but shouldn't be too hard to work round :)

Finally, the pulley mark might just conceivably be wrong. Not sure if they're the same part number through all production but if they changed the keyway position at any time then wrong pulley would give wrong timing mark. Seen it happen on other stuff....
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #18 on Apr 28, 2009, 7:49am »
Hopefully I'll have time to have a look at Jejy tomorrow; she definately performs a bit better than Vixy (holds 70) but still not great (she was quicker before new points 'n bits were fitted a while back). I also need to have a bit of a look at Vixy tomorrow - Kathryn's not used to my particularly ratty brand of classic cars with their collection of rattles and clatters; and she's not sure that it's not developed a new noise.

So I need to have a dink with her car in the afternoon :)
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #19 on Apr 29, 2009, 2:53pm »
Okay, so... the pulley marks are TDC and ATDC? And to set the timing the ATDC mark should be lined up with the joint in the crankcase *not* the little marker-line on the side of the crankcase??

Hang on, let me get a picture...Right:
[image]

So, when I set it before I lined up the mark I think is TDC with the thing I've marked as a Crankcase Mark - and that's where it is at the moment. I did, actually, on my first reading try lining the ATDC mark up with the crankcase mark, but the poor thing ran like a dog - assuming that the mixture couldn't be that far out I re-read it and decided that actually it should be at the TDC mark, and it ran better, but presumably that's just that the mixture and timing are both wrong (by miles) and I need to start thoroughly from scratch?

To clarify, for me, 'cos I'm a bit paranoid now:
- Timing is set ATDC (not BTDC)
- Should be set using the ATDC mark, which is the one I've marked?
- ATDC mark should be aligned with crankcase joint *not* with timing mark on crankcase?

The position it's in, incidentally, is approximately where the *other* DAF is set. Yes, really. I've not checked the points gap on that one though...
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #20 on Apr 29, 2009, 7:33pm »
Yep, that photo's how it should be - at least, according to Mr Autodata and Betty seems to agree. One of the problems with these engines is that they seem to be very tolerant of mis-setting so you could quite easily compensate for much-too-retarded ignition with carb adjustment at idle!

Not sure what the mark on your crank case is but certainly it isn't shown in any of the literature I've found :?
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #21 on Apr 30, 2009, 7:17am »
The mark on the crankcase is shown in the Autodata book; at least, I think that's what it is, and it is described as a crankcase mark in the text...

[image]
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #22 on Apr 30, 2009, 10:43am »
That's looks very correct Kate. :D

TDC is actually the split line on the block, as described in the manual & AutoData. So 5mm from there will be the optimum setting. ;D

As Joe said- the DAF motor is very tolerant as far as settings go. No real need to be be super picky or worry too much.

John
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #23 on Apr 30, 2009, 1:54pm »
So, this is attempt 3. I'm not sure if it's right, since it seems to run almost exactly the same as it was before...

I thought I'd take a quick set of photos and see if this looks 'right':

This is where the static timing is currently set - I'm fairly certain this is what the book shows as the timing mark, and it makes sense...

[image]

[image]

And here's where the distributor ended up.

[image]
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Re: Quicky - is the book points gap right?
« Reply #24 on Apr 30, 2009, 11:42pm »
Looks perfect Kate....job well done. :D As long as the idle/fuel mixture is dead on (or close ;) ) the 44 will have plenty of zing and give you better performance.

John
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