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Post by zonker on Sept 3, 2019 23:02:36 GMT
Hi - I'm looking to pickup a nice well restored Daf 46 Saloon. Realizing that the motor is only an 850cc 2 cyl boxer motor, I have no aspirations above knowing that this is a slow car and will remain to be a slow car. That being said, I'm one of those that seeks to get a "personal best" from the output of the motor thru careful tried and true methods of extracting more performance. After all, a 10hp bump is likely to shave 5 seconds off it's naught to 60 time and while it's still slow. It's getting closer to driving something a tad more modern.
So, all things considered - has anyone had success modifying this engine to produce, say 55 hp? If so, what was your path taken to achieve these results?
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Post by swissdave on Sept 4, 2019 9:25:24 GMT
I’m sure a few ponies could be liberated with a free flowing exhaust. There was a post on here somewhere about building a larger capacity twin using modified VW barrels and pistons, the Daf unit is very similar in design to the VW but I can’t find it now, was the forum user called spidermonkey or something like that?
Twin carbs off a BMW motorbike engine?
The vario on the 46 is the weakest of all the Dafs being 1/2 of a 66 setup with only a single belt so you can’t go crazy with the mods although I’ve heard that the 66 vario is apparently good for 150 hp.
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andrew
Likes DAFs
Posts: 1,101
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Post by andrew on Sept 4, 2019 18:34:24 GMT
I wouldn't describe a Daf 46 as "slow", but as I drive a Daf 33 perhaps I'm not the best person to comment! I've driven a Daf 44 and they're NOT slow, by any stretch of the imagination! The Daf 46 benefits from the De-dion rear axle arrangement, as fitted to the Daf 66, but this adds weight to the car and the ratio changes seem slower (although this might have just been the a problem with the car I was driving.) It's probable therefore that a Daf 44 IS quicker than a Daf 46, but suffers from the swing axle arrangement, which tends to make fast driving and cornering more "interesting".
If the engine's tuned and timed properly, and the vacuum system is working properly, then you'll be surprised how powerful they actually are! Properly set up these engines are quite capable of keeping up with modern traffic. Remember that the acceleration figures quoted in car magazines are then ones obtained by experienced professional drivers, with access to the maximum torque speeds for each gear; very few ordinary drivers are able to reproduce those speeds in normal driving. Dafs are different-ANY driver can obtain the best acceleration-just stand on the accelerator! That's why owners are often pleasantly surprised as to how quick Dafs really are!
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Post by dafman50 on Sept 4, 2019 18:36:45 GMT
Install 66 transmission port and polish heads straight exhaust minus heat exchangers .and as Steve says motorcycle carbs.
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Post by zonker on Sept 5, 2019 3:37:09 GMT
Is the single belt system that vulnerable to failure, or is that just the assumptions that are made based on it being only one belt vs. two. From a parasitic loss point of view, it seems a single belt is beneficial for a lower powered motor such as the 850cc, and if the 66 vario can allegedly handle 150hp, then it's safe to say a single belt design of the same parts can withstand 75hp?
I don't rightly think I'll ever see 75hp from a 850cc 46, but a dual carb/cam/compression bump/exhaust modification might get me to something like 60hp. Or even a small belt driven supercharger on a stock motor might make that kind of number too. I'm wondering is there are any members whjo have actually modified their motor? Also, has anyone played with centrifudal clutch spring tensions to increase rpms before the shoes engage?
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andrew
Likes DAFs
Posts: 1,101
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Post by andrew on Sept 5, 2019 7:12:47 GMT
The maximum torque of the engine is the point at which the clutch "locks solid"; on a post 1971 Daf 33 this happens at 2850 R.P.M. and I should imagine it's similar with the Daf 44 engine. If the curve of the power torque were to be changed then the point at which the transmission locks solid could be altered, but I'd be reluctant to go down that road myself. Daf engineers spent many millions of Guilders developing the system to perfect it and I don't think my mechanical skills, capable though they are, could better their abilities!
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Post by swissdave on Sept 5, 2019 18:09:43 GMT
if the 66 vario can allegedly handle 150hp, then it's safe to say a single belt design of the same parts can withstand 75hp? That seems logical but I agree 75hp would be a big ask. Supercharger you say? This sounds like my kind of thread! AMR 300 or 500 supercharger can be found very cheap and are plentiful, would be a good size for the 850. www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Supercharger-Steal-Part-One&A=110294 |
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Post by zonker on Sept 5, 2019 20:07:52 GMT
Yep those Chinese eBay superchargers rated for 500cc to 1300 cc had me thinking too. Perhaps I should spend the $200 they want for one and play around with it.
As for the single belt 46 folk out there, how many of you have gotten stranded with a broken belt and how long was it since the belt was replaced? I'm still of the belief that a freshly belted 46 variomatic should be good for 60hp.
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Post by andrejuan on Sept 6, 2019 14:37:12 GMT
Regarding belts. It is worth mentioning that the current belts from the owners club are far superior to belts of old. New ones will probably outlast the car !!
A 46 single belt setup need not be a concern nowadays imo.
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Post by zonker on Sept 7, 2019 1:09:42 GMT
Regarding belts. It is worth mentioning that the current belts from the owners club are far superior to belts of old. New ones will probably outlast the car !! A 46 single belt setup need not be a concern nowadays imo. Yes I've heard the newer belts last much longer. That's good because the car I am seeking to buy has the newer style belt, replaced in 2009. |
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dafix
Likes DAFs
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Post by dafix on Sept 8, 2019 15:21:02 GMT
I saw once a Burton kit-car (based on a Citroën 2CV) which had been modified to increase its power: there was a pipe connecting the fan housing to the intake of the air filter, a kind of cheap blower system that could be easily made on any DAF that has an air-cooled boxer engine (like the 2CV), but maybe the carburetor would be needed to be tuned up afterwards. However, I would personally not go through with this modification on ny DAF 46: not only it would be illegal im my country, but it would be unsafe considering the braking capability of a 46. For me it's OK to drive a somehow sluggish car (if it's not for daily use, indeed). I enjoy taking my time at the wheel of my 46 on Sundays (and I don't care what drivers of modern cars on the road think).
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Post by mtjm on Sept 8, 2019 16:24:31 GMT
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andrew
Likes DAFs
Posts: 1,101
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Post by andrew on Sept 8, 2019 19:29:10 GMT
There is a piece in a report from the early 1960s, referring to the Daf Daffodil, in which the writer has covered 40,000 miles in his Daffodil and absolutely loves the car, except for the need for more power on some occasions. In response, he changed some of the jets in the carburettor and and enriched the mixture. The gave the Daffodil an appreciable increase in performance over the whole range, and a higher top speed. The advantage of these changes is that they are immediately reversible, should the car need to be returned to its ordinary specification.
Another thought I've had is this: Air cooled Dafs were all designed to run on 88 octane petrol (2 star in old school language) but the owner's manual stated that, if it were run on a higher octane fuel then the timing should be advanced by 2 degrees, thus developing more power, This option would be another reversible one, if it didn't work out. I plan to advance the timing on my 33 in this way & run it on premium fuel, to see if it's any quicker. Associated with this one could skim the heads, thus increasing the compression ratio, which would certainly increase the power, although this change would be irreversible.
Just a few ideas.... Let's hear how it goes!
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Post by zonker on Sept 10, 2019 17:32:47 GMT
There is a piece in a report from the early 1960s, referring to the Daf Daffodil, in which the writer has covered 40,000 miles in his Daffodil and absolutely loves the car, except for the need for more power on some occasions. In response, he changed some of the jets in the carburettor and and enriched the mixture. The gave the Daffodil an appreciable increase in performance over the whole range, and a higher top speed. The advantage of these changes is that they are immediately reversible, should the car need to be returned to its ordinary specification. Another thought I've had is this: Air cooled Dafs were all designed to run on 88 octane petrol (2 star in old school language) but the owner's manual stated that, if it were run on a higher octane fuel then the timing should be advanced by 2 degrees, thus developing more power, This option would be another reversible one, if it didn't work out. I plan to advance the timing on my 33 in this way & run it on premium fuel, to see if it's any quicker. Associated with this one could skim the heads, thus increasing the compression ratio, which would certainly increase the power, although this change would be irreversible. Just a few ideas.... Let's hear how it goes! Andrew, you are on to something I think every classic car owner needs to do given the chemical mixture of our modern gasolines - it would behoove one to get a wideband air fuel gauge and spend the better part of a day dialing in the carburetor jetting and distributor advance for the best operation on modern fuels, as well as insuring the motor is running as close to 14.7:1 air/fuel ratio as possible. This will make for a longer lasting motor and squeeze out the most fuel economy and power on todays' gas, whichever octane you prefer to run. |
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Post by mtjm on Sept 10, 2019 17:43:55 GMT
if the 66 vario can allegedly handle 150hp, then it's safe to say a single belt design of the same parts can withstand 75hp? That seems logical but I agree 75hp would be a big ask. Supercharger you say? This sounds like my kind of thread! AMR 300 or 500 supercharger can be found very cheap and are plentiful, would be a good size for the 850. www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&title=Supercharger-Steal-Part-One&A=110294These are sometimes used on aircooled VWs with excellent results. Here's a company in Australia that sell supercharger kits (some with carbs some EFI) for example: joeblow.me/products/supercharger-kits |
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Post by zonker on Sept 10, 2019 18:03:41 GMT
An AMR300 supercharged blow thru carbureted Daf 844cc might be in my future  |
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Post by zonker on Sept 10, 2019 18:12:05 GMT
I saw once a Burton kit-car (based on a Citroën 2CV) which had been modified to increase its power: there was a pipe connecting the fan housing to the intake of the air filter, a kind of cheap blower system that could be easily made on any DAF that has an air-cooled boxer engine (like the 2CV), but maybe the carburetor would be needed to be tuned up afterwards. However, I would personally not go through with this modification on ny DAF 46: not only it would be illegal im my country, but it would be unsafe considering the braking capability of a 46. For me it's OK to drive a somehow sluggish car (if it's not for daily use, indeed). I enjoy taking my time at the wheel of my 46 on Sundays (and I don't care what drivers of modern cars on the road think). I would imagine the 2CV driver benefitted from a ram air effect by channeling some of his cooling fan air, but I doubt he actually developed any meaningful amount of pressure that could be seen as more than 1 or 2 pounds of boost on a gauge. |
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Post by swissdave on Sept 10, 2019 18:42:27 GMT
An AMR300 supercharged blow thru carbureted Daf 844cc might be in my future Do it! |
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Post by Nick the man with a daf.... on Dec 4, 2019 18:55:27 GMT
a well set up 46 is no slouch by any form. yes it's only about 40hp but no other car delivers is peak power throughout the entire speed range like the daf can.. i will say though the 44 is another kettle of fish altogether. now that is fun
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