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Post by starider on May 15, 2020 18:49:14 GMT
I thought I had most things sorted, but as I have said previously when it comes to the generation of the 12volt stuff,I have never got involved,I had a couple of mates who were absolutely brilliant with all things auto electrical. The problem is that I have checked the charging as best I understand with the alternator which had been fitted to the van.I have checked the alternator bearings etc. and it appeared to charge OK. When I ran the engine this morning I could smell rubber burning[ignition light went out OK]. I switched off and found the new generator belt was loose and had obviously been hot enough to burn/melt. Is it possible that the alternator once producing charge is acting like a brake and slowing down the pulley and causing the belt to slip and thus burn? When I first road tested the van,the generator belt broke, but I just thought it had been standing for years and broke through age.Any suggestions would be appreciated.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 15, 2020 19:15:37 GMT
Your explanation suggests one of two explanations: The belt might not have been tight enough, causing it to partially slip and in doing so become hot and then melt, although given your experience with cars, and Dafs in particular, I think this unlikely. Another explanation might be a failure in the alternator bearings. To check things out check if the alternator pulley turns easily and smoothly and doesn't feel "rough". Something else to consider is that Daf 33s were not supplied with alternators as original equipment, so any alternator fitted has to line up exactly as the dynamo would. The pulleys need to be precisely in line, so check this. In addition, most alternators are shorter than dynamos, so the bolts securing it to the engine block must prevent the alternator "twisting" on its mountings and thus mis-aligning the pulleys that appear lined up to the naked eye. The use of a decent engineer's straight edge is useful here. I KNOW this will sound stupid, but you have removed the regulator from the circuitry, haven't you....?
More advice once if you need it!
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Post by starider on May 15, 2020 23:03:42 GMT
Hi Andrew, I didn't fit the alternator,but while the engine was on the bench I did all the above,the bearings are smooth and quiet,everything is in line.The old regulator was removed and was in the box of spares. The warning light goes out as it should etc. The alternator is a Lucas model.which should not make any difference. It rotates clockwise as does the engine,so back to you!
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2020 7:06:50 GMT
(Scratches head, strokes chin, pours out a THIRD cup of coffee.....) Hum.... A few further thoughts....
1/ Does the alternator have a regulator built into it? Most do-hence the necessity to REMOVE the regulator when fitting an alternator-but some DON'T, so the regulator WOULD be needed in this instance. If you've run an alternator that needs a regulator without one this might happen.
2/ Was the car originally a 6 or a 12 volt one? Fitting a 12 volt alternator to a car that was originally had a 6 volt electrical system is not a case of simply fitting an alternator.
3/ The belt profile might be wrong. Alternators tend to have smaller and broader pulleys than dynamos, so the belt profile may be wrong on either the alternator or the crankcase pulley.
4/ (Getting desperate now...) Because of the alternator's different position, could this make the belt's running position to alter and might the belt be rubbing on something near the crank pulley, like the oil cooler or pipes to it? (I did say I was getting desperate....!)
I like a "lockdown challenge"......
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Post by bobdisk on May 16, 2020 7:26:23 GMT
Do you know what the alternators model number is? A Lucas is usually ACRsomething. This will tell us if it has a built in regulator, or if it requires an external regulator. This external regulator is totally different to the usual one used by a dynamo, so the old regulator must not be used, and the correct replacement obtained.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2020 7:39:55 GMT
Do you know what the alternators model number is? A Lucas is usually ACRsomething. This will tell us if it has a built in regulator, or if it requires an external regulator. This external regulator is totally different to the usual one used by a dynamo, so the old regulator must not be used, and the correct replacement obtained. Yes, I ought to have made that clear... Typing early in the morning!
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Post by starider on May 16, 2020 10:20:45 GMT
Hi, Thanks for the continuing help. The alternator is a Lucas LRA 743 12volt 9AR2973L. I haven't a clue whether or not it has a built in reglator.If it should have a separate one could that be the problem? I seem to remember years ago when fitting a new DYNAMO you had to "set" the polarity using a battery,again quite hazy as the auto electricians did the sparky bits!
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2020 10:59:14 GMT
YES IT'S VERY IMPORTANT!! All vehicular sources of electricity, be they dynamos or alternators generate electricity and they produce HUGE amounts-far more then the car needs or the battery could hold-unless they're regulated; perhaps "controlled" would be a better word. Dynamos generate D.C. (direct current) which can be stored in the battery and the regulator allows the dynamo to charge the battery until it's "full" and then prevents over-charging. Alternators generate A.C. (alternating current) which CANNOT be stored by the battery; it has to be converted into D.C. electricity before it can be stored, so the regulator does TWO things in this case: 1/ it converts A.C. electricity to D.C. and 2/ it prevents the battery ever-changing, as per the dynamo example. As an aside, alternators produce fat more electricity than dynamos, particularly at low speeds, so they charge the battery at tick-over, whereas a dynamo doesn't; that's why the generator light often flickers when your Daf is ticking over-that IS correct for a dynamo.
If you fit an alternator to a car previously fitted with a dynamo you need to: 1/ remove the original regulator, as this will ONLY work on DC electricity. 2/ ensure that the new alternator has a regulator fitted to it and if not, fit and wire one into the circuit. To the best of my knowledge ALL alternators are negative earth and I've never seen positive earth one, so they don't need polarising.
I hope this is helping!
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gromsound
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Post by gromsound on May 16, 2020 11:43:07 GMT
fitting an alternator and regulator is SO much simpler then the dynamo stuff... REMOVE everything that was with the dynamo, especially the regulator. I think your alternator was shorted by the old reg which of course would increase the mechanical resistance on the pulley enormous -> burning rubber. Connect the THREE alternator wires to mass (-), battery plus (directly, no fuses or switches needed) and the control wire that is normally labeled EXC to the corresponding regulator connection. The other two reg wires are for mass (probably via the mounting bracket) and ignition + (switched by the ign lock). The alternator will simply be ''activated'' by the EXC wire going from zero to 12V and only then generate current to the battery. The switching point can be mechanically adjusted in old black Duccelier regulators by just one excentric screw. trial and error using the cars voltmeter. The newer green ones that are sealed can not be adjusted, just hope for the best.
If all is working correctly, you should measure a live voltage of 13.5-14V on the battery when the engine runs. If it remains 12V or lower the alternator is not charging.
There is NO control light in an alternator setup, you will need a permanent voltmeter, preferably a thermal one to display the AVERAGE voltage. Only a rather modern alternator would have an integrated voltage reg plus a control light connection (like a V340 has). hope this helps, you could use a daf 66 schematic diagram for reference.
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Post by bobdisk on May 16, 2020 12:02:16 GMT
Does your alternator look like this? with a 3 pin plug on the back,2 bigger wires, and 1 small wire
Useful information here;
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Post by starider on May 16, 2020 13:45:52 GMT
Hi, as I have said the conversion was done when I bought the van,there is NO external regulator,the original was in a box that came with the vehicle.There is no plug on the alternator just a "housing" with 2 terminals, one large Lucar and next to it a smaller[standard size]Lucar. There is a fairly large black wire from the large terminal to the live connection on the starter solenoid.There are two conjoined white wires from the smaller terminal,one connects to the + on the coil and the other is cable tied to the wiring harness and disappears into a bundle of wires wrapped in insulation tape, about where the dynamo regulator would have been. Those are the only wires from the alternator, although there is a spare small terminal on the opposite side of the alternator,directly opposite the other two. Just to confirm,the ignition light works as it should. Thanks.
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pauldaf44
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Post by pauldaf44 on May 16, 2020 14:17:36 GMT
Hi, as I have said the conversion was done when I bought the van,there is NO external regulator,the original was in a box that came with the vehicle.There is no plug on the alternator just a "housing" with 2 terminals, one large Lucar and next to it a smaller[standard size]Lucar. There is a fairly large black wire from the large terminal to the live connection on the starter solenoid.There are two conjoined white wires from the smaller terminal,one connects to the + on the coil and the other is cable tied to the wiring harness and disappears into a bundle of wires wrapped in insulation tape, about where the dynamo regulator would have been. Those are the only wires from the alternator, although there is a spare small terminal on the opposite side of the alternator,directly opposite the other two. Just to confirm,the ignition light works as it should. Thanks. That's not wired up properly. The warning light wire should be connected to the little terminal on its own and there is no need for it to go any where near the starter motor.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 16, 2020 14:43:15 GMT
Hi, as I have said the conversion was done when I bought the van,there is NO external regulator,the original was in a box that came with the vehicle.There is no plug on the alternator just a "housing" with 2 terminals, one large Lucar and next to it a smaller[standard size]Lucar. There is a fairly large black wire from the large terminal to the live connection on the starter solenoid.There are two conjoined white wires from the smaller terminal,one connects to the + on the coil and the other is cable tied to the wiring harness and disappears into a bundle of wires wrapped in insulation tape, about where the dynamo regulator would have been. Those are the only wires from the alternator, although there is a spare small terminal on the opposite side of the alternator,directly opposite the other two. Just to confirm,the ignition light works as it should. Thanks. That's not wired up properly. The warning light wire should be connected to the little terminal on its own and there is no need for it to go any where near the starter motor. It could be correct, but some of it IS wrong: As I understand it from your description, the alternator has TWO connections: a big one and a little one. If this is the case they should be wired as follows: The big connection is the power output and should be connected to the battery, although it can be connected to the solenoid, as there's a big this wire from the battery to the solenoid, so this means it is connected to the battery in the same way. The smaller connector is for the warning light on the dashboard and you say this works Ok, so I suggest the lead that "disappears into the wiring harness" is connecting to the warning light on the dashboard. BUT there should NOT be a connection from the alternator to the coil, so (in the words of one of my favourite films...)"cut this wire" and remove it from the circuit. (The film was "Juggernaut!) All should now be well.....
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Post by bobdisk on May 16, 2020 15:28:00 GMT
Does the back of the alternator look like the connections labelled Euro Terminations on this drawing? The terminal marked IND goes to the thin white wire that originally went to terminal 61 on the old dynamo regulator, this now goes to the ignition warning light, and nowhere else. One of the + terminals is connected to the battery either at the solenoid, or directly to the battery with the thicker black wire. (The reason that there are 2 "+" terminals is that on some vehicles, the battery goes first to the solenoid using a thickest cable to start the car, then to the alternator using the next size down wire, then to the vehicles electrics, also using the next size down wire.)
You say you have an unused small terminal. Is it marked S ? There are two types of regulation, one is "alternator sensed", and does not have that "S" terminal. It regulates itself internally. The other is "battery sensed", and has that S terminal. It should be connected directly to the battery. This tells the alternator how much charge to give the battery. It is connected there to take account of any resistance there may be if it were connected anywhere else (eg, the coil +) If it is not connected at all, the alternator will think the battery is flat, and will then put out its maximum voltage, probably more than 16volts, this will cook the battery.
Do you have a test meter? When the engine is running, you should see about 14-14.5 volts across the battery, no more.
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Post by starider on May 16, 2020 19:11:46 GMT
Hi, I have checked the voltage across the battery,at around half throttle the reading was 14.4 and at tickover 14.6 volts. I've managed to get a good look behind the alternator. using a clock face as a reference point at 3-o-clock there is a plastic protrusion which has a large Lucar flat connector, next to that are 2 smaller spade connectors.The lead on the large spade runs to the dynamo solenoid[the feed from the battery]. One of small connectors has 2 wires siamesed together,one[white] goes into the loom and I assume to the warning light.The other [white/red] joins another [white/red] from the electric fuel pump on the + terminal on the coil. At 9-0-clock there is a fairly large external regulator. At 12-o-clock there is a single spade terminal in a recess with no discernable wire. The petrol pump was fitted apparently because the mechanical one was removed to allow the alternator to be mounted.If I remove the 2 extra wires from the coil obviously the pump doesn't work, but nothing else seems to be affected. What is interesting is that if the plastic sleeve on the other extra wire is slid back there is a large resistor in the line?? Hope this makes sense!
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Post by bobdisk on May 17, 2020 7:42:54 GMT
It sounds as if it needs to be looked at by an auto electrician, It doesnt sound right at all. Any chance of some pictures? Your description leads me to think the fuel pump is on all the time, whereas it should be controlled by the ignition switch (key), cant think why there should be combined wires, or be a resistor in there.
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pauldaf44
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Post by pauldaf44 on May 17, 2020 8:48:55 GMT
That’s not right at all. I’d be very tempted to strip that lot out and rewire the alternator from scratch.
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Post by starider on May 17, 2020 9:42:44 GMT
Because the fuel pump feed is connected to the + on the coil it is controlled by the ignition switch. I suspect on reflexion that whoever converted the generation saw the coil + as an easy key controlled source of energy and I will certainly rectify the pump supply from a proper source.I will take the extra wire to the coil + out of use and see what happens. My logic says that power should come from the alternator and not have a feed into it. Comments please. Has anyone any idea what the extra terminal is for, an earth perhaps?
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Post by bobdisk on May 17, 2020 10:55:47 GMT
I agree with paulda44, any chance of a photo of the rear of the alternator? We should then be able to identify the connections. It is unlikely there is an earth terminal there, that is usually done via the body of the alternator. The fuel pump would come from the coil + , its the rest of it I am unsure of.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 17, 2020 12:27:34 GMT
If I were there I reckon I could sort this, but as Covid 19's not going to allow that, this is sounding increasingly like an auto electrician or garage job. I'm happy to advise over the Forum, but without seeing the vehicle at first hand or some detailed pictures I fear my and others' advice might result in making things worse and, in a worse case scenario, could cause a fire. The LAST thing any of us want to do is destroy a rarer than rare Daf 33 van!
The electric fuel pump should have a power feed controlled by the ignition, so that it's working when the ignition is on & not working when it's off-obviously! However, it is VITAL that the pump is fused, and Daf 33's ignition circuits are not fused, therefore I suspect the pump is similarly unfused, which is, in my opinion, dangerous & I'd be interested in other Forum member's comments on this. Given your encyclopaedic knowledge of Dafs I'd be tempted to revert to the original mechanical fuel pump, thus removing one more uncertainty from things. Furthermore I'd consider the option of removing the alternator & returning to the dynamo & regulator set up.
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Post by bobdisk on May 17, 2020 12:37:12 GMT
I agree with Andrew, but some photographs would certainly help. I intend to convert to an alternator some time in the future, so will draw a circuit diagram of my proposals, I am sure the same thing will work on the 33 van.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 17, 2020 14:09:39 GMT
Likewise, it's one of my numerous lock-down projects for my 33, too!
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Post by starider on May 17, 2020 19:58:27 GMT
Hi Andrew, thank you and everyone for the comments, firstly the pump was changed to an electric one because fitting the alternator made the removal of the mechanical pump necessary.I'm quite happy with electric pumps because as you know Mini's,Moggy 1000's, Jags and many others have electric pumps. Back to the problem,I decided to contact my mate[the auto electrician,retired]after many years. I'm glad I did as he has had health problems and I spent over an hour over the phone talking of old times and I pleased to say he cheered up considerably, especially when I talked about the van,he used to sort electrical problems on Dafs for Benstead and Pidcock. He said the Lucas alternator should only have two wires from it,as you have said and advised removing the wire to the coil. He said an alternator is very similar to a dynamometer and if power is wrongly supplied to it, it could act as a brake, which could cause the drive belt getting hot and melting. He remarked that Lucas were always trying to add gimmicks to their products to get one over Bosch etc.,some successful some not. He didn't recognise the Lucas number, so I'm going to remove the wire to the coil and see how it goes and of course keep you all posted.
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Post by starider on May 17, 2020 20:08:11 GMT
Hi, forgot to say "our" 33 Pick-up was converted many years ago to an alternator and has behaved perfectly,especially if the battery is low and starting is from jump leads,the alternator very quickly re-charges the battery. I was told many many years ago that a vehicle with a dynamo,when starting would need to be driven at least 4 miles to replace the power used to start the vehicle. Of course in todays automotive world a dynamo would never be able to supply enough power to a battery to work all the electrical gizmos fitted to even the most basic models.
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andrew
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Post by andrew on May 18, 2020 6:54:38 GMT
Hi, forgot to say "our" 33 Pick-up was converted many years ago to an alternator and has behaved perfectly,especially if the battery is low and starting is from jump leads,the alternator very quickly re-charges the battery. I was told many many years ago that a vehicle with a dynamo,when starting would need to be driven at least 4 miles to replace the power used to start the vehicle. Of course in todays automotive world a dynamo would never be able to supply enough power to a battery to work all the electrical gizmos fitted to even the most basic models. Yes, you're quite right! Alternators can supply HUGE amounts of current at low revs and are the reason why modern cars have them. Daf switched (no pun intended!) over to alternators on the Daf 66 because the electrical load included a heated rear window, which drew more current. The four mile rule was one I remembered from my days with V.W. when we serviced early Beetles etc., some of which had 6 volt systems. If the battery seemed sluggish we'd take the car for a run to Barnstaple & back (a round trip of about 15 miles) "at speed" and the electrics always seemed better afterwards. I understand why the pumps were changed; alternators are shorter and thicker then dynamos, hence the need to change the pump. Mind you, if your 33 pick-up DIDN'T have its pump changed, it might suggest an alternative alternator would solve 2 problems: 1/ it'd work properly and 2/ you could revert to a mechanical pump. Just a thought! Only 2 coffees this morning......!
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Post by starider on May 18, 2020 8:22:43 GMT
Hi,I agree about the size of the alternator,I had already thought about a new small one, until I looked at prices, so if it works OK I'll use it,otherwise I'll start saving!!
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Post by starider on May 18, 2020 8:50:55 GMT
Hi Andrew, just followed your suggestion,rang my motor factor[having looked at the silly prices on line] and they can supply a new one for just over £50, so it's a no brainer,should be delivered later today. Not sure if the mechanical pump came with the spares,if it's there may consider replacing it.The electric one can then revert as spare for the Moggie Van.
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Post by starider on May 18, 2020 12:31:38 GMT
Hi, just my luck,the alternator was delivered a couple of hours ago and it's for fitting on the right hand side of an engine! so it looks like a delay while the correct one is in stock.
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Post by starider on May 18, 2020 12:53:53 GMT
Should be here tomorrow! If anyone is interested there is a company selling a universal Lucas style alternator on ebay which fits Mini's etc. for £49-50 free P&P Ebay number 172922562098
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gromsound
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Post by gromsound on May 18, 2020 15:47:36 GMT
too late for you but maybe a valid tip for anyone else who wants to convert to AC: The single phase alternators of small citroens like 2CV dyane AMI6 are very small indeed. if a 2CV runs on it then it should work in a daf 33. however it is not daf quality...
still wonder why you would want to change it (unless you fit 4 big rally lights), i had no problem with the original dynamo in 34 years of driving the same 33. had to change the carbon brushes once at ca 70 kkm (cheap and simple fix) no problems at all with those Bosch parts.
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