Mrs Grinder's Fiat 500

[33grinder]

I thought I would post some photos of Mrs. Grinder's new Fiat 500. Regretfully she scrappaged her Escort Mk6. It was getting longer in the tooth and costing ever more money to keep on the road, plus it had problems which I kind of got round to sorting out but never properly. Not a problem whilst she was working in London and commuting by train but now she is a student teacher and driving every day she wanted something more reliable.

Well, I was dead set against the idea initially, but for the sake of marital bliss/a quiet life and further inducements including, inter alia, being able to choose some alloys for it and any other options which I saw fit, my objections eventually fell by the way side.

Here's some photos, sorry I can't be @rsed to suffer the indignities of photobucket and crop out the family members, and incidentally Mrs. G. says it was pure coincidence she chose to wear her white fleece that day, yeah right!:









It's only a 1.2 pop which is the base model, no pocket rocket and a little bit crashy over bumpy surfaces but that is probably the phat wheels and short wheelbase. Otherwise it seems nippy enough and Mrs. G is quite happy with it!

As you'll note it's a manual as sadly they don't do a variomatic and Mrs. Grinder does like her manual cars.

It was initially a bitter pill to swallow as I abhor the scrappage scheme. Yes, there are the arguements against how 'green' the scrappage scheme is, as a car outliving it's 12 year life exceptancy is nearing carbon neutrality when compared to the energy extolled to build a replacement. On an ecomonical basis, how prudent is it to stimulate our industry when, unless you're buying a morgan for example then you're just stimulating the economy of another car building nation. Our motor industry is largest around kit cars and classic cars, the latter of which we are being told should be scrapped. Hmm.

That having been said, MK6 Escorts are ten a penny (now nine a penny) and for my mind come from a generation of cars that were built not to last and to be recycled. Although there is a pang of guilt for her fate, I know that (in theory) some parts can be recycled and of use to others. As I see with our Dafs, it would be great to save every single one but with the best intentions, we all need donor vehicles to turn up from time to time.

What does upset me though is when people are so ignorant about just what it is they're scrapping.



Matt found this beautiful 1970's Series 3 Landrover handed over at a Ford dealership under scrappage. The dealership was not prepared to do anything to save her. It would appear that, like Mrs. G's Mk6 Escort it is worth more dead than alive. Matt tells me that it was straight (very unusual for a Landie!!!) and that it will be broken for parts before being cubed. There is a little consolation in that, but surely that is missing the point?

Well, I shall get off my soapbox now, hope you like the photos and I'll tell you if anything interesting happens (which I doubt somehow but you never know).

TTFN,

33G.

P.S. Now Mrs. G. has her new car, she's actually remembering to park far enough from the garage door so that I can actually open it without having to move her car. Strange that, isn't it! ;D

[Patrick]

Oct 20, 2009 23:03:44 GMT 33grinder said:

I thought I would post some photos of Mrs. Grinder's new Fiat 500. Regretfully she scrappaged her Escort Mk6. It was getting longer in the tooth and costing ever more money to keep on the road, plus it had problems which I kind of got round to sorting out but never properly. Not a problem whilst she was working in London and commuting by train but now she is a student teacher and driving every day she wanted something more reliable.

Well, I was dead set against the idea initially, but for the sake of marital bliss/a quiet life and further inducements including, inter alia, being able to choose some alloys for it and any other options which I saw fit, my objections eventually fell by the way side.

Here's some photos, sorry I can't be @rsed to suffer the indignities of photobucket and crop out the family members, and incidentally Mrs. G. says it was pure coincidence she chose to wear her white fleece that day, yeah right!:

It's only a 1.2 pop which is the base model, no pocket rocket and a little bit crashy over bumpy surfaces but that is probably the phat wheels and short wheelbase. Otherwise it seems nippy enough and Mrs. G is quite happy with it!

As you'll note it's a manual as sadly they don't do a variomatic and Mrs. Grinder does like her manual cars.

It was initially a bitter pill to swallow as I abhor the scrappage scheme. Yes, there are the arguements against how 'green' the scrappage scheme is, as a car outliving it's 12 year life exceptancy is nearing carbon neutrality when compared to the energy extolled to build a replacement. On an ecomonical basis, how prudent is it to stimulate our industry when, unless you're buying a morgan for example then you're just stimulating the economy of another car building nation. Our motor industry is largest around kit cars and classic cars, the latter of which we are being told should be scrapped. Hmm.

That having been said, MK6 Escorts are ten a penny (now nine a penny) and for my mind come from a generation of cars that were built not to last and to be recycled. Although there is a pang of guilt for her fate, I know that (in theory) some parts can be recycled and of use to others. As I see with our Dafs, it would be great to save every single one but with the best intentions, we all need donor vehicles to turn up from time to time.

What does upset me though is when people are so ignorant about just what it is they're scrapping.

Matt found this beautiful 1970's Series 3 Landrover handed over at a Ford dealership under scrappage. The dealership was not prepared to do anything to save her. It would appear that, like Mrs. G's Mk6 Escort it is worth more dead than alive. Matt tells me that it was straight (very unusual for a Landie!!!) and that it will be broken for parts before being cubed. There is a little consolation in that, but surely that is missing the point?

Well, I shall get off my soapbox now, hope you like the photos and I'll tell you if anything interesting happens (which I doubt somehow but you never know).

TTFN,

33G.

P.S. Now Mrs. G. has her new car, she's actually remembering to park far enough from the garage door so that I can actually open it without having to move her car. Strange that, isn't it! ;D

I like the 500's - At least it's built by the company that first thought of it - Shame in a way that it had to "grow", but at least that makes it a tad safer! We had a hire car Punto Grande a while back - and it's good to note that they've got their gearboxes sorted - Last experience of a Fiat being a brand new Uno 45S back in 1986 that had to be sent back because it's cogs were so awful! A taxi driver in a 55 also said that of the number they (the company) had bought, several had had to go back for sorting.

I know what you mean about the last Escorts too - hardly really memorable - My brother was given a (then new) H reg Escort company car once - it was an awful car compared to the MkIII/IV Tinny, buzzy and it was hardly surprising that some car magazines rated the Skoda Favorit as better! Ditto the same generation Astra and the last Cavalier - you sat in them and felt as if you had no protection from the outside world whatsoever compared with the earlier models. Again I knew a taxi driver who hung on to his late model Mk II Cavalier as long as the taxi test permitted in the early 90's because he prefered it to one of the newer ones he also had.

I've been reading sadly about some great cars going off to meet their maker - and sometimes being taken in by people who knew perfectly well what they were doing - and had been the one that had lovingly cherished their (would be) classic up until that point!

The number of good cars (but not that good) being sold on ebay with an obvious reserve of £2000 makes it very clear what will happen when the car isn't sold!

What also intrigues me is in some cases the cars are just being flattened - no stripping for those valuable spares that would help folks in years to come, but squashed and then I suppose, shredded and sorted into the separate components for recycling. I get the impression that the "Classic Car Movement" will come to a succinct halt after a certain year because the cars of that (or this) period will be impossible to maintain! and that's before you take into account the electronics and computers that will undoubtedly be impossible to replace! Then again - Grumpy Old Git that I am - I don't have much love for many moderns as it is!

See! You've got me at it now!

[pauldaf44]

ahhh but the modern of today are the classics of tommorow. Remember when the DAFs where new and many other similar cars nobody would have thought them to become classics!! As it is I have no arguments about whether or not its a classic car when I take it to shows infact most people are delighted to see one. Think about it in the mid 70s people driving around in Austin A30s series 1 landrovers or Morgan 3 wheelers also hated the modern cars of the era. No I am pretty shaw that in 20 years time we will see late escorts at shows as people will keep them going if only as a reminder of not to go down that road again.

Rant Over

Paul (Automotive engineering design student) This is a common topic that comes up in said innovation lectures.

[spunkymonkey]

The big problem with classics of tomorrow is the technology. Any half decent engineering shop can make just about anything a pre-80s car needs if they're paid enough and you can also get inventive with "similar" parts if needed. That doesn't apply to most electronic engine management kit, especially when an alternative that keeps it running is likely to put it outside emissions limits, thus making it impossible to MOT. Even the wrong (and often now unique) spark plugs can upset some ECUs. So, MOT failure simply because NGK or Bosch aren't willing to make plugs for the 100 remaining examples is a real possibility in future!

Manufacturers have no incentive whatsoever to continue supporting models as they age and the cost of low-volume build electronics is prohibitive, especially when someone has to reverse engineer the box and software in the first place if they're going to match the manufacturer's specs.

[howard]

The jury is still out on the Fiat 500 for me - maybe it's my suspicion of all things modern! However, I do think it's less flawed than the new Mini and new Beetle in its execution - even if the engine is in the wrong place! And certainly looks wise they didn't disgust me like the first time I saw a Ford Scorpio/Ka/New Megane etc etc. So that's a good sign! It does seem to be "all door" from the side though doesn't it (but it has to be, surely?)

I confess they do an awkward green colour 500 that I quite like though! I'll leave my prejudices until I actually drive one!

Looking at the interior, even though this is a base model, one has to wonder what is the least that people would accept these days as to equipment, noise, and finish. If I'm driving something just for the sake of driving it, I don't care if it is noisy, if there is no radio/cup holders etc, so long as I enjoy it. I am one of these sad people a la Nick Larkin who likes listening to whiney gears, and believes that talking to them nicely will cure worn syncromesh noises. It's always been part of it to me. Saying that, after having undertaken some huge journeys eg to Holland in one day from Bristol there's a lot to be said for comfort, quietness, aircon, squashy leather seats, and drinks coolers And it does look nice and bright and welcoming in the 500!

Things have certainly moved on since DAF was laying thin bits of rubber matting on the floor and providing you with one instrument to look at, and boasting about opening rear windows! (Two of mine have those lovely coconut overmats! BEAT THAT!).

I hope Mrs G enjoys it! And it's a huge shame about that Land Rover. Criminal.

[dafdaffer]

very nice, a bit of different to the everyday box, cars were meant to be for leisure

shame about the landie. always fancied one.

[Patrick]

Oct 21, 2009 18:40:37 GMT @macplaxton said:

Not a fan of Fiat 500s. New or old. The new one like the Mini and Beetle is not true to original concept and inflated in poise. In fact, I'd rather have a new Panda.

I've never driven a new one, but I have driven a late 40s Topolino and an early 70s Bambino.

That's what bugs me with these retro jobs. The original ideal was to create "A People's Car". The Beetle as Quentin Wilson delightfully called it is "just a VW Golf in a posh frock" The medium sized car that BMW produces goes against everything Sir Alec Issigonis believed in (he also hated the Germans with a vengeance) and is an insult to his memory (IMO) - and yes, you'd probably be better off with a Panda. At least the 500 is sort of small though, even if it's not entirely basic. Unfortunately that's a sign of the times.

Oddly enough though - It occurred to me that Rover could have got one over on BMW if they'd - like the did with the MG RV8 - taken the Metro Platform and stuck a modified Morris Minor-esque top on it.

[howard]

Blimey - tell me about it. Have you seen the new Corsa compared with the old one?? The VW Golf is the most obviously obese car compared with the first model that was produced.

The Beetle is a bit of an oddity to travel in as the front seat passengers have about three feet of headroom and the ones in the back have none at all

To me, changing cars from their original concept is a bit daft - its like having a retro styled new DAF and having a manual gearbox in it!

[33grinder]

Well, I certainly agree that new cars have become bloated and I suppose we have to accept that, one from a stylist view to meet current tastes and expectations and secondly from all the saftey equipment that they have to contain. Remember, safety sells and we have Ralf Nader to thank for that. Would you buy the same car 'less bloated' if it only had 1 ncap star rather than a competitor with 5 stars?

Mrs. G. was initially quite taken with the new Ford Ka, luckily she didn't go for it, as I think it looks like a trainer as to many small cars trying to appeal to a younger market perhaps.

There's no denying that Fiat are trying to cash in on the current retro theme and why not, it's certainly popular. There's even a plan to produce a new trabbant, retrothemed on the original. What I do applaud Fiat for is that within the constraints of modern requirements they have remained as true to the original as practical. There's no mistaking it's blood lines so to speak. It even has the single instrument binacle and body coloured dash.

It has a soul which it's competitors lack. Mrs. G. purposefully reverses into spaces so she can be greated by its smiley face when she returns. There aren't many new cars that can provide that pride of ownership and character and that is what I feel is making it such a success at he moment. Try finding a new one at a dealership and driving it away the same day. When Mrs. G. ordered hers all the display models had already been sold except the demonstrator and she had to wait 3 months. Compare that to the i10 and Ford Kas she test drove. I really think Fiat are on to something with this one and I am encouraging Mrs. G. to enter long term ownership with this one, perhaps in 20 years time it will be cherished as a classic, certainly compared to its rivals! ;D

[howard]

That's absolutely true - certainly if I wanted a car for everyday motorway use I'd not use the FB Victors I once had that had no seat belts and a nice pointy chrome steering wheel boss with each prong designed to go in each eye

It would probably do pretty well in a crash, if it was using someone elses crumple zone, but however, I probably wouldn't fare quite so well. Even if the cheeky amongst you might say I have one large built-in air bag that has seemingly been deployed already.

My own memories of the original 500 we had when I were a nipper are hazy to say the least, except that we had to take several run ups at hills, and some of us had to get out so it would get to the top!

Don't take any comments that appear a wee bit critical to heart - we all like different things and that's what makes talking about cars such a joy. I love them all - good, bad and ugly. I was once a home for many of Leyland's finest offerings - I'd take in the unloved and enjoy them. I can relive those days by buying any book on the "World's Worst Cars" and they'll all be in there. I'm just pleased to hear that people can still enjoy car ownership!

I'm in a club called Great Western Saabs and they are all a great bunch of people - most if not all the owners like Saabs but are just enthusiasts generally and go to Rover shows etc and classic car events, hillclimbs etc. It's just a lovely social gathering of like-minded folk. I went with two of them to the DAF Museum and they found it fascinating. There's certainly none of this "rubber band driven" nonsense or sneering, or the usual jokes we have to endure! There's even pictures of some of my DAFs on their home page.

Nice.

[Patrick]

One or two Golfs ago the car passed the size of the 1972 Passat so I've read! Remember how huge Volvo 240's used to look - I remember a family friend's 145 - Beautiful car in a chunky way - but enormous - then. Now even a Modeo dwarfs it!

The Mother in Law has a few brochures knocking around her place. I fear that she's going to send her loyal, humble S reg Fiesta 1.3 (No electric windows, not even power steering on this one) to meet it's maker and it must be barely up to 60k - most of them in unchallenging Norfolk. She had the brochure for the new Fiesta - I couldn't believe the dashboard on that - lit up like a Christmas tree and a complete Mess! Ergonomics don't come into it! I guess that it's the top model with the most flashing lights - but you'd need a phone book manual to understand that lot!

Not exactly a case of "Forward to go Forwards" ;D

[33grinder]

I think we have to accept that times have moved on. Once one small car has power steering or electric windows or a cd player then all the competitors have to have it.

I suppose to get back to basic motoring you could always buy a Perodua Nipper but then where's the fun in that?! ;D

[daf44]

i agree John.

modern cars will not last long enough to become "true classics" because the electronics in them will not last and cannot be repaired/rebuilt like the older mechanical control systems.

example no.1 is (was ) the Austin Montego.
lovely car. i have thrown away 3 of these when the engine control unit fried itself and cost more to replace than buying another montego.

[howard]

Oi, what you got against Perodua Nippas?!!

I had a Daihatsu Cuore (a 1997 one that the Nippa was based on) and it was a scream. Everyone who borrowed it was greatly amused by its frantic performance and tidy handling, plus the fact it was the width of a Mars bar. And not much longer. Oh to try the 4x4 turbo version (I kid you not).

I enjoyed it a great deal until some bugger burnt it out - typically after I'd just taxed and MOT'd it. Great.

Minimal motoring it certainly was - and maybe all the better for it. I think it weighed less than 600kg too so the 847cc three-cylinder engine didn't have its work cut out (even with me sat in it).....

As most of you will know, I love Saabs too - and the only thing that kills them really is the electrics - fuel pump, or ignition cartridge on the later ones. Both are easy to replace (once you know the secrets of how to get the old fuel pump out that is) - the last DI pack that died on my 9000 was dated 1995 so it was more than likely the original so I bought a brand new replacement for nearly £200 in the hope it might last as long. If I change 9000's I'll take the DI pack with me!

You are right Mr G though that time moves on. I took a Mk2 Capri I had to work a few years back and everyone was laughing about the fact it didn't have power steering (not that it needed it). Maybe we're all a bunch of jessies these days - they should try parking an Austin Princess with no power steering like I had to do (hence my Popeye-esque arms!). Or better still, lifting the bonnet on a Vauxhall Viceroy (remember them?). At work I often check the state of my car during lunchtimes (oil in dashpots, water level etc) and I always get the same question. "Problems?"

"NOOO! Just checking everything like the manual that came with YOUR car tells you to do every week"

"Oh, I let the garage check mine"

"When do you take it there?"

"Once a year"

That's a worry. Maybe in our comfy soundproofed cabins we forget we're actually driving a machine sometimes!

[33grinder]

Thanks John.

I know our Dafs don't contain all these ECUs etc but that doesn't mean that we're not in the same boat. Two things spring to my mind, prop shafts and engine mounts for the earlier models. Or how about rear lenses for the 33 (probably much the same problem for other models).

Not a problem for owners of say, classic Jaguars or MGs, there's enough around so that replacements can be manufactured but not so much for our fine cars.

The UK's motor trade is massive around kit cars, classics and plain old after market replacement parts. Once all these ECUs start burning out and cannot be replaced, I'm sure some enterprising jobby will come up with a solution and a mini industry will arise from it. That is what we Brits are (well, used to be) good at. ;D

[howard]

Engine mounts, rear lenses and propshafts are really hard to find. That's because I have them all in my garage so I can hold the entire DAF world to ransom

No, not really. I wouldn't be so cruel.....

[spunkymonkey]

It's not that hard to re-wire without all the electronics, John (except for the lack of any form of distributor on a lot of new engines - but that can be worked round if you need).

The problem, at least here, is that for MOT purposes the emissions limits are virtually impossible to meet in anything but fully electronic form. Also, for any car over the past decade or so, they have to meet "whole type approval" which basically means that any replacement parts you fit must be EU registered as "suitable for the vehicle"*. So even if you had the skills to build an ECU from scratch, you wouldn't be allowed to use it because it wouldn't be "approved"! Not sure how far down to component level that goes for electronic repairs though.




* this, of course, is for your own safety and benefit and has nothing to do with locking you in to manufacturer's spares networks......

[joloke10]

Been reading through this and have to say its a nice little 500
They do an Automatic of Sorts called a Dualogic ;D

Apart from our Classic Mini I'm in receipt of DLA because i was born with Spina Bifda so my daily is a lease car

I currently have a 1.6 Golf Auto but used to have a CVT Micra ;D
Some Tike decided to cover a few cars where the micra was parked in paint stripper one night

Anyways it went through motabilty to get sorted and they supplied me with a Fiat Panda Dualogic to tide me over

I couldnt get the hang of It the first day nearly totaling it rolling back in forward gears and forward in reverse due to no "Creep" on the gearbox

Once i got the Hang of it i loved it at the time i think i put about £20 worth of juice in it which lasted me the whole 3 weeks i had it and took me nearly 300 miles

I believe the pandas being lighter are a tad nippier but as ive never driven a new 500 i couldn't comment for sure?

I have to agree though the new "Retro Cars" are not in the original spirit like with fiat i think the Panda is the modern day "Peoples Car" VW theirs is the Fox not the Beetle

And as for the new BMW Mini we were considering one as my current lease car is due for renewal,the Golf is Lovely but very heavy on the Juice

We Test drove a BINI (BMW MINI ;D) it was nice but the quality isn't quiet as good as VW and now theres a TDI DSG Golf thats more economical than the Bini Diesel Auto so we may just stick with VW ;D

Ive also found New Mini Dealers quite Rude and look down their noses at you

Just because I'm a bit of a Scruffy Tomboy,i don't fit their client base ideal

I see VW as a prestige Brand but the dealers are Lovely on the Whole

Ive also found Fiat Dealers Quite Nice

Whatever way you look at it Mrs Grinders Wee Fiat looks Nice and its gotta be more interesting than an escort ;D

Huggz
Jodie

[33grinder]

Thanks for those kind words Jodie.

Mrs. G is in fact still quite happy with her 500 and I've not updated the thread since as, well, erm...nothing has really happened, other than a small dashboard rattle which seems to have gone away now, before I could properly detect where it was.

It's still turning in good mileage and no reliability problems. She has been racking up the mileage doing 50 miles per weekday to college and back. The good news is that she has a teaching job which starts in July and it is in our home town, she can walk there in 10-15 minutes which means that, unless the weather is really bad, the car will only be used for weekends.

Interesting you mention about the Panda having no creep. Dafs have no creep either and can roll on a hill so you need to use the handbrake. All nice and easy once you're used to it. Funnily enough I did have some creep with Gavina my 33 when over at Matt's. I had the choke out whilst the engine warmed up, then Dan said, 'Ere, Gavina's making a run for it', turned around and Gavina was driving off into the farm! I managed to catch her in time but it was quite amusing in a 'Some Mothers Do 'Ave 'Em' kind of way!! ;D

[joloke10]

Yup it was the K12 an 06 plate
Didn't realize that about dafs not having any drive or "creep"

Having Said that being used to more conventional autos the panda took me unawares

However after a few hours it was second nature

My partner bought a Citroen last year with their "Sensodrive" system and that was dreadful

we only had it a week then it got exchanged for a Manual version which i don't drive

The sensodrive we nicknamed the "Jerkymatic"
One day it decided to change gear as follows 1st,2nd,3rd then neutral right in the middle of a busy roundabout at rush hour

Citroen agreed to take back the car and admitted the transmission had issues

I look forward to driving and Owning a Daf one day as conventional Autos though simple to drive i found the idiosyncrasy's of driving the dualogic fun(not so the Sensodrive)