What makes an engineer?

[spunkymonkey]

Following on from comments elsewhere, which I'm afraid I took slight exception to, I thought I'd throw this one open to fellow Daffers.

What makes the difference between a mechanic / engineer and a fitter?

I was always under the impression (reinforced by the attitudes in many technical and highly specialised jobs I've held over the years) that it was essentially this, leaving aside questions of professional qualifications:

A fitter is able to fit new parts to repair things whereas a mechanic is able to repair what's already there (if possible / economic) but will often fit new parts for expediency and an engineer is able to substantially modify where appropriate and design new solutions where required.

Hence (very roughly), Kwikfit have "fitters" who can put a new tyre or exhaust on for you. You'd hope your local garage has a "mechanic" who can diagnose and repair most systems on your car and, if you're lucky enough to have a decent engineer around, he'll be able to improve on the original if you so wish.

Now, it seems from the aforementioned comments that "fitting" - ie: the replacement of new components regardless of the possibility of repair for the old - is the golden standard which we should all strive to be capable of and that anything else is "unprofessional".

Personally, I can't see it. It takes a shed-load more skill to effect a lasting repair than it does to bolt off / bolt on or cut off / weld on. To me, the only thing that replacing repairable parts demonstrates is

(1) deep enough pockets to buy new and
(2) enough disregard for the future of our cars to be willing to discard basically serviceable parts and use up precious stocks of rare replacements that might one day be really needed for a car to survive.

Enough rant, views gratefully received......

[pauldaf44]

My view is this.

Kwik fit and the like are fitters as are most main dealers. At college we have two automotive related courses.

City and Guilds level 2 in Vehicle Fitting Operations.

This is the qualifications that the big chain garages are asking for.

ND Vehicle Technology (motorsports)

This is the course I am on and it by default gives you the CandG qualification. We are taught how to modify a vehicle to improve its performance and efficiency wheres as the VFOs are taught purely to diagnose what part is causing the problem and how to replace it.

I recently had to do a report on a ficticous car that had been sold for £4k and returned as using a lot of oil and making a racket. We where then told that the engine had been inspected and where given the following figures.

Bore wear (0.6mm)
Crankshaft taper (0.5mm)
Crankshaft ovality (0.3mm)

The task was to write a report to advise the warranty department on the options for repair and the viability of each.

I could see 4 basic methods of rectification.

Replacement with a new engine. Cost about £2000 and will come with a garuntee and should bolt up easily.

Reconditioning engine. Cost about £1000 but the wear in the old engine is such that it may not be repairable by conventional methods so an exchange would not neccesarily be possible increasing the price to that similar of a new engine.

New short engine and crank and subsitute remaining parts from existing engine. Parts cost the cheapest option but labour rates end up with it costing more than a brand new engine. Also the oil burning and rattling indicate possible severe top end wear meaning you may as well fit a recon unit.

Scrap yard engine. No garuntee and the engine may or may not be complete so would require more work to fit than the new one. £500.

[33grinder]

Now fully appraised of the origins of the discussion Joe, I can corroborate your opinion. Not that I wish to post tittle tattle of little relevance to others you understand!

[kenr]

No argument from me Joe.

[v8gasser]

Im with you Joe ,
a " fitter " recently refused to balance the NEW tires he had just fitted to the family-skool-run toymota rattle-bus , as it has a rattle from the s.a.d ( special accesory drive shaft ) that drives the alternator and power steering pump . He said it would " let go " and chop off his head....Its been rattling for 27,000 miles so far.....

[pauldaf44]

Ermm when I balance wheels I take them of the car and put them on the electronic balancer unless of course its a DAF 33 or a Citroen 2CV

[v8gasser]

yep , had car up on ramp with engine running " as thats how we balance wheels " but he refused to go under it.....dont think he had a clue , and I wont be going back there....8=)

[v8gasser]

well.....im assuming he confused balancing with tracking .....I gave up trying to fathom him out....either way he wouldnt go near the car ....... thankfully neither was needed when I had it checked !

[Richard DAF Webmeister]

I remember about ten years ago, the Bullet's wheels were in serious need of balancing and I eventually found a good old fashioned garage who had one of the machines shown above.

The mechanic - yes really - did what he had to do, and so far, the balance is still right. But of course, although hardly used in terms of miles, the tyres will probably have to be changed soon due to age, and I will have to see if the garage is still in business - which I doubt somehow.

I also remember having a good laugh when he balanced the front wheel that's connected to the speedo - 0-90 and off the clock in about a second! Serious power!!

[v8gasser]

90.....? that would make a great " Kodak " moment........

[pauldaf44]

Nov 18, 2011 12:07:47 GMT Richard DAF Webmeister said:

I remember about ten years ago, the Bullet's wheels were in serious need of balancing and I eventually found a good old fashioned garage who had one of the machines shown above.

The mechanic - yes really - did what he had to do, and so far, the balance is still right. But of course, although hardly used in terms of miles, the tyres will probably have to be changed soon due to age, and I will have to see if the garage is still in business - which I doubt somehow.

I also remember having a good laugh when he balanced the front wheel that's connected to the speedo - 0-90 and off the clock in about a second! Serious power!!

Please Richard change those tyres sooner rather than later. They are well past there design life. Tyres age in ways that are not visible to eye the rubber hardens and embrittles. Any tyre over about 5 years old should be replaced as they are quite likely to blow out if stressed i.e hitting a pot hole.

[pauldaf44]

Nov 19, 2011 2:36:17 GMT @macplaxton said:

5 years? That's rather overcautious Paul and doesn't tally with manufacturer's recommendations.

The British Tyre Manufacturers' Association don't actually put a figure on it HERE.

Cooper Tire say don't fit anything older than 6 years and replace at 10.

Michelin say, annual inspection after five years in service. Replace at 10 years from their date of manufacture as a precaution.

Tyre age is NOT part of the MOT test, only matching size/construction and condition is.

I would just keep an eye on them Mr B, it'll be obvious to the eye when they are past it. The sidewalls will look a state.

I know its not a testable item age of tyre. But your tyre is the only point of grip. The area in contact with the road is about 1 handspan. Why take a risk driving on old tyres? Know its not always obvious to the eye you cannot see perishing on the inner side walls easily nor inside the tyre! Rubber dries out and loses is flexibility long before its starts to show signs of perishing.

[Nick the man with a daf....]

Nov 19, 2011 17:23:32 GMT pauldaf44 said:

Nov 19, 2011 2:36:17 GMT @macplaxton said:

5 years? That's rather overcautious Paul and doesn't tally with manufacturer's recommendations.

The British Tyre Manufacturers' Association don't actually put a figure on it HERE.

Cooper Tire say don't fit anything older than 6 years and replace at 10.

Michelin say, annual inspection after five years in service. Replace at 10 years from their date of manufacture as a precaution.

Tyre age is NOT part of the MOT test, only matching size/construction and condition is.

I would just keep an eye on them Mr B, it'll be obvious to the eye when they are past it. The sidewalls will look a state.

I know its not a testable item age of tyre. But your tyre is the only point of grip. The area in contact with the road is about 1 handspan. Why take a risk driving on old tyres? Know its not always obvious to the eye you cannot see perishing on the inner side walls easily nor inside the tyre! Rubber dries out and loses is flexibility long before its starts to show signs of perishing.

whilst I do agree with the fact that you cant see perishing on the inner side of a tyre its very rare to even get perishing here as its such a sealed enviroment with no UV acceleration to make it perish so to me the outside of a tyre is as good a place to see perishing as you will get.. as it will be the FIRST place to go.. this is of course MY opinion mate

[starider]

Hi,have read with interest the above comments,I think we mostly agree that there is a considerable difference between a fitter and an engineer.There is a distinct lack of good old knowledge from years of experience when faults occur with vehicles.Most modern day workshop managers have few if any, over the counter diagnostic skills as they are often arrogant 28year old "experts"who try to fob you off with a load of bull-s***.My dealings with our local Ford Dealer over the problems with my wife's Connect Van during its 3 year warranty period proved this.It was only when we had access to the"old"workshop [due to retire,so was not"customer facing"]manager,did we get anywhere.Most garages now don't stock any parts.So the routine was:- I ring the dealer"the termostat is not working properly on the Connect", "How do you know sir?","The temperature gauge doesn't register for at least 6miles and the heater only gets warm"."I'm afraid we cann't order a termostat until our mechanic has had a look sir!" "It's a 70mile round trip,cann't you get a thermostat in stock ready?"No sir we are not allowed to do that".So a 70 mile round trip to confirm that I was intelligent enough to diagnose the problem.Then another 70mile round trip to have it fitted!!!Now it's out of warranty I won't use them again.
I don't think I am being big headed in saying that I am an engineer,having had a 5 year apprenticeship with Perkins Engines,10years in the motor trade and 22 years teaching engineering.I used to use a sit-on,balance the wheels on the car wheel balancer and it always proved to do a better job than off the car wheel balancing,as it balanced the tyre,wheel,hub,disc/drum as a unit.I seem to remember that the tyre companies didn't use them because to do properly was quite time consuming and not profitable.Our local tyre fitters often sent customers round to us to balance on the car if they couldn't cure balance problems.It was very interesting if the vehicle had un-balanced wheels and also duff shockers,it was like riding a bucking bronco until you started to get the balance right,but extremely satisfying when finished.Enough of my rants. PS most good tyre companies are able to balance 33 and 2CV wheels. starider

[andrew]

Nov 19, 2011 2:36:17 GMT @macplaxton said:

5 years? That's rather overcautious Paul and doesn't tally with manufacturer's recommendations.

The British Tyre Manufacturers' Association don't actually put a figure on it HERE.

Cooper Tire say don't fit anything older than 6 years and replace at 10.

Michelin say, annual inspection after five years in service. Replace at 10 years from their date of manufacture as a precaution.

Tyre age is NOT part of the MOT test, only matching size/construction and condition is.

I would just keep an eye on them Mr B, it'll be obvious to the eye when they are past it. The sidewalls will look a state.

Slightly off-topic, but you might like to know that I've just restored a 1976 Lada 1500, found in a local lock-up garage after 10 years! The same tyres are still on the car and one of them is the original Russian ones fitted when the car was built! The balance is fine & I've been belting round the M25 regularly with them for weeks! After reading all this I think a new set of Michelin 165/13s might be required....

Have a look if you're interested:

www.autoshite.com/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12411

Regards, Andrew

[andrew]

I've just realised that you won't be able to read about my Lada, as the filters on this site think the link to it an offensive word (it isn't!) So, if you want to persevere in seeing this iconic piece of Russian engineering, remove the "autoproverbaile" from the above URL address and substitute auto (followed by the slang word for faeces) followed by the letter "e" All should then become clear....

[Richard DAF Webmeister]

You can now.

This editing/moderating power has its uses.

In fact, I think I'm going to do some more.

But I have just read and seen the thread re your Lada, and I think it's fab!