Seized on clutch.

[robin]

Hi all. I am new to the club so you can assume that I know little about the cars. A couple of months ago I bought a 1971 33 in need of much TLC to put it mildly. Having replaced the engine mounts after I suspect it was towed very hard by way of the bar that holds the front engine mount I was very excited to find that it both started and drove well on Saturday. Sadly on the Sunday I found that the clutch was jammed on such that I was unable to get it to drive. After such a high comes a major low!
I am told that it is likely that it is a failed clutch shoe lining jamming the works. It sounds like the engine must come out but does anyone have a suggestion to make the removal easier than I found the engine mount replacement! I have shortened the mount studs but I still expect problems extracting them from the carrier. Robin

[dafdaffer]

Hi Robin, i take it that you are aware that the car should be started in gear (not meaning to sound funny), other than that if you can not spin the drum by hand with the engine switched off then as you said the lining will have come off the shoe, the hardest part in my opinion is to remove the exhaust bolts as they can be tricky, other than that putting a trolley jack or set of wheels under the engine and pulling it forward with the torque tube separated at the bell housing (be aware there is a spring on the back of the tube that can fall off) is normally quite straight forward, you will need to remove the front grill on the 33 so the engine can come forward, i would not advise an engine lift as the strain is to great on the torque tube. when yo refit the engine use stainless bolts on the exhaust it makes future engine removal allot easier.

[starider]

Hi, Just to add a few comments to dafdaffer's advice,remove the front bumper[two bolts],use WD40 on the nuts and bolts which hold the grill/front panel[also useful on exhaust nuts and bolts].There is a small heater pipe which comes down from the inlet manifold into the silencer,be careful when removing the silencer,make sure that this pipe is really free before finally taking away the silencer.If this pipe breaks there's no real problem,the part that you don't want to break is the pipe that it joins onto from the manifold.These manifold have always been a problem and are expensive to purchase.
You will have to disconnect the throttle cable,choke cable and all the various electrical cables,I always use a bit of masking tape on each cable with its fitting point written on it[you can also photograph the wiring. connections].The various rubber vacuum pipes need marking where they fit onto the engine before removal. Whilst underneath remember to undo the small earth strap near the silencer/bottom of the bell housing.
As advised use a good trolley jack under the circular internal filter housing on the bottom of the engine.The engine just pulls out,with the front cross member in place,you may have to just ease either of the two rear mountings bolts out of their slots.Once out there is a link plate between each heat exchanger which wriggles off quite easily,then removing the bell housing and drum is self explanitory.When you refit the engine you will need to remove the small inspection plate in the centre of the floor pan,just in front of the transmission unit to put the spring back on the input shaft splines[+ a touch of grease] and slide the shaft back on.I think that's,if I've missed any thing someone will say.I took my 33 engine out last week[one of a great many!!].......starider

[bobdisk]

Place to get spare parts for the Daf is ; www.dafhobby.nl/index.php?language=en Danny is an excellent source of anything Daf. That important spring was missing from my 33, but Danny found one! Its there to keep a calibrated tension on the prop shaft. First time I removed my engine, it took about an hour, its easy, follow Stariders instructions. Undo the rear engine mounts at the car, not the engine, then undo the front mount and SLIGHTLY lift the engine clear of the rear mount's slotted holes, then come forward. The clutch shoe's linings have a habit of falling off if the car has not been used and stored in damp for some time. That will jam the clutch on. If you suspect it has been towed by the engine front mount cross member, make sure it is not bent.

See this thread about the vacuum system; dafcars.proboards.com/thread/3625/low-ratio-valve-problems?page=1&scrollTo=35227

[andrew]

Before embarking on the removal of the engine I'd check that the clutch has, indeed, jammed. To check this, put the gear selector in neutral and then start the engine. When the engine's warm and the choke is pushed fully in the tick-over speed should be low enough to allow the clutch to disengage. However, hapens with Dafs is that the tick-over speed becomes higher than it ought to be, causing the clutch to partially engage, and a "crunching" sound when moving from forwards to reverse. It's even worse when moving from neutral to either forwards or reverse. If the clutch is still spinning when the car is in neutral and at tick-over, try reducing the tick-over speed and see if it helps.

[robin]

Thanks All, for the invaluable information. I will set about removing the engine this evening. The clutch is definitely stuck as I can turn the engine over by working the drum around.

So I don’t separate the engine from the bell housing?

The front panel is off currently since I have just replaced the mounts as all were failed or failing. The front crossmember is definitely quite bent and deforms the front mount rubber badly so I will have to cut it and reshape it prior to welding it together again. The new mounts were pigs to get in as the engine side studs are awful for access. One stud took two spanners alternately and two days to undo so I’m glad that I won’t have to do that one again.

I have indeed made Danny’s acquaintance electronically already and he is definitely very helpful. When the lockdown ends I will be back commuting to Germany again via Harwich/Hoek of Holland and I hope to divert to meet him face to face and maybe even find the museum in Eindhoven too. Who knows, one day maybe even in the DAF! I have some floor pan welding to get done before that though. Definitely beyond my abilities. That said, the car was Zeebarted long ago and whilst it is an ugly coating it has worked for much of the structure.

[starider]

Hi, just a thought,it's definitely worth taking the bonnet off,only 4 nuts to take off[will need two of you to save scratching the paintwork].

[andrew]

As the engine is removed from the car, it comes out with the clutch bellhousing on the rear. You'll need to undo a number of nuts & bolts that hold the clutch housing to the rear of the engine and then pull the housing and drum off. Daf recommend using a slide hammer, attached to the driveshaft, to assist with this. Given that your clutch shoes have stuck the drum this might involve a fair amount of effort! I have a couple of spare engines, both with front supporting brackets, if this helps, although the present Covid problems might preclude you taking a look at them. I have also removed a number of clutch drums from 33 engines, although never one that had stuck shoes!


Whereabouts are you?

[starider]

PS Forgot to mention on removal you need to disconnect the two heater control cables,one on each heat exchanger. Tried to remember how many 32,33 and 44 engines I have removed and re-fitted,impossible to remember all of them, but working on average of perhaps a couple a year,plus working on my own DAFs I reckon around 35+.Interestingly only a couple of 55s and 66s and never a 46.

[starider]

I agree with Andrew,with all the 33 engines I have removed, I've never had one with any sort of seizure. I've removed a few where clutch linings had become detached and the loose friction material then somehow wedged between another "shoe" and the drum.The ones with wedged linings were very worn[usually because the owner drove with both feet and used the left leg to control speed]They also needed new brake shoes at regular intervals.
The worst one I ever did took an age to get the drum off the flywheel bearing,we had to resort to brute force to get the drum off the engine.It was then obvious what the problem was, the car had been used so much that the lining material had worn down,then the metal shoes had worn down so much that eventually the "metal clutch" completely jammed into the drum[which had a groove 3mm deep in the friction surface. The owner said "I thought it seemed noisier". A tribute to these little cars because a new drum,bearings and clutch segments, it was soon back on the road as good as ever.

[robin]

Again, huge thanks for all the helpful information. I have removed the engine today. No spring found associated with the prop shaft so I will have to investigate this. Came out very easily but drew the prop shaft out of the gearbox with the engine. All looks okay but I am still to withdraw the clutch drum. 🤞.
Must say that I am really looking forward to catching up with you all at a meet when things get back to something like normal. It was such a buz getting it moving after what was said to be a very long sleep in a garage, that I now cannot wait to get it on the road. 😁

[andrew]

The prop shaft coming out with the engine is not uncommon, but it's possible the spring that lives between the rear of the prop shaft and the primary transmission unit may have become dislodged as a result. Not a problem, though! When next you're under the car you'll notice a small inspection plate just in front of the primary unit, held in place by one screw. By removing the panel the spring can be located and positioned correctly over the end of the primary drive unit.

Be careful with the prop shaft as it's made of aluminium and easily damaged

[starider]

Hi, Andrew is correct about the access panel in front of the primary the later 33s had one self tapper, the early 33s,like my van had two.I know this because when I removed the engine from the van a couple of weeks ago,the prop started to come out with the engine.Once the engine was out the first job then was to then pull the prop right out,then to get under the back end ,remove the said access panel, fish out the spring and put it on the primary unit imput shaft for safe keeping.
The first thing to do when ready to put the engine back is to very lightly grease[using HMP grease] the splines on each end of the prop.Make sure the spring is still on the splines,slide the prop. back into the tunnel,then it's under again to slide the prop up to the spring using the access hole.Don't at this point put the cover back on because once you have the engine bolted back in, before you do anything else, you will need to double check the spring is still in place.

[junk]

Hi All. The drum was a bugger to pull off as you warned and it was exactly as described in that one shoe had shed its lining and jammed the adjacent shoe. A new set of shoes from Danny and I am ready to replace the engine tomorrow. Incidentally I have a cheap 3m WiFi endoscope from Banggood which was invaluable for reinstalling the prop shaft with its spring. Wish me luck!

PS. Is there a supply of headlights? The mirroring on mine is a bit poor. So replacement would be good. If not does anyone do the silver plating solutions?

[andrew]

Glad to hear you managed to remove the clutch. Might I suggest you take a picture of the clutch BEFORE dismantling it, as it will assist you when you come to reassembling it. It might also be useful to use some Tippex and mark the springs as well, & number the parts as they're removed.

I have a couple of spare headlights for a 33, although they're not in particularly good condition. The ones in my car were re-silvered by the this company:

www.geniusofthelamp.co.uk

The results were spectacular and well worth the time and money. If you need advice on higher rated bulbs to give greater light when using the headlamps, just ask! Is yours a 6 or 12 volt car?

[junk]

I appear to have set up two accounts on this forum. Junk is from my number plate UNK***J and Robin is me also. Sorry for the confusion!🤣

[junk]

Mine is a six volt system. I have seen some LED bulbs and I wondered how they would be. Low power consumption might be useful. Thanks for the pointers on light refurbishment. I have seen these people advertised but a recommendation is very reassuring.

[starider]

Re clutch, I'm sure you will sort fitting new clutch.When you re-fit the engine make sure the spring and prop are on the input shaft and pushed on until the prop is against the spring,the engine is then pushed into the engine bay making sure the clutch drum shaft enters the splines in the prop, you can turn the clutch drum to ensure the splines line up,before you do anything else push the selector lever into forward and try to turn the clutch drum,if there is a small amount of movement this will confirm that both ends of the prop are in place,then double check the spring is in place. The next job is to ease the mounting bolts into their slots[you will need to spring one side into the slots]. Fit the nuts but do not tighten,then fit the front cross member,once again do not tighten. On the 32/33 mechanics course it was stressed that before finally tightening the mounting bolts it's important to ensure the bolts are RIGHT DOWN to the BOTTOM of the SLOTS!![by lifting the front of the engine] You then just need to check that the front cross member is in the correct position before tightening. The rest is down to you, BUT don't forget the engine to body earth strap fron the clutch housing to the road spring cradle,if forgotten it's been known for the choke cable becoming the earth for the engine when starting which quickly heats up!! and melts.

[junk]

All done and drives nicely again. Now need to make it stop! Brakes had been unused since overhaul but had been adjusted to the point of jamming and so I have some glazing to sand off the shoes.

Incidentally. Has anyone got a column mounted ignition barrel assembly or even a picture of what it looks like? I have only got the rotary switch unit left and a screwdriver works that so not very secure!

[andrew]

I have a Daf 33 steering wheel, column and ignition switch..... but no key! I don't know if it's possible to have a key cut in these circumstances, but you're welcome to try..... I have a dash-mounted ignition switch AND key, which is how early Daf 33 are were started, to which you're also welcome! I also found 3 headlight units and have a picture, which I'm happy to email to you. If you're interested, please PM me your email address.

[starider]

Hi, I would suspect that if your car has had a brake overhaul that the linings would be unlikely to be glazed, just the inner surface of the drums rusty. I would slacken off the adjusters perhaps a couple of "clicks" and road test using the brakes as often[and safely] as possible,then off with the drums and blow/brush out all the rust/dust,refit the drums and re-adjust the brakes[It would be a good idea to wind out the adjusters,clean the threaded part,coat the threads with a light coat of High melting point grease then adjust]. This small bit of servicing means that when you need to adjust the brakes in the future the adjusters will not be seized. Another check make sure the shoes have a champhor on the edges of the friction material. I have noticed that replacement brake shoes from different manufacturers can vary slightly in the friction material width.Putting a slight champhor on the edges will allow for this.

[dafman50]

I am able to have keys cut to barrel number . As often have spare units with no keys .