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Jun 1, 2023 21:39:08 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 1, 2023 21:39:08 GMT
i'm almost at the end of my tether with my 44. I've had it about 3 years and a hardly used it as i just can't get it running right. Its starts up fine but once you get to about 20mph its revving really hard and not changing up. its really unpleasant to drive but as this is the first Daf I've even been in/driven I have nothing to compare it to I'm not sure what i'm aiming for. i recently discovered it had a split diaphragm, thats now been replaced but has made no difference, if anything its worse. The low range switch on the dash doesn't appear to do anything but i can feel the solenoid clicking in the valve-one of these: dafhobby.com/product/emvk-daf-33-44-6v/i've taken it to the garage and they couldn't figure it out other than thinking it might be to do with the vacuum ( i have since replaced that diaphragm). Could someone please give me some very simple step by step vacuum diagnostics. or am i barking up the wrong tree and is it something else completely.? If anyone is in the Exeter area I would be grateful if you could have a look at it with me-i would pay! I'm really losing patience with it now! Thanks, Tom
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andrew
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Jun 2, 2023 7:28:49 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 2, 2023 7:28:49 GMT
Do not panic! Help is at hand... I'll compose a detailed reply later this morning that'll assist you in troubleshooting your Daf, which, when running properly, should sound as sweet as anything!
Right then, here goes.... Your Daf 44 is an air-cooled car and is basically a bigger engined version (850cc, as opposed to 750cc) of the Daf 33. These cars ARE the easiest cars in the world to drive and, once set up correctly, are simplicity itself to whizz about!
When the ignition is switched on, but before the engine is started, confirm that the green "low hold" light (a green triangle symbol switch) is switched OFF. If it isn't, switch it off, as it should be OFF when driving, unless you're descending an Alpine pass! Now switch the ignition off and on again; you should hear a distinct "click" as you do, which is the electrically operated solenoid in the carburettor opening. If you don't, report back. Now start the engine and let it warm up. This'll take only a few minutes, as air-cooled engines warm up almost instantly. When the engine is warm and ticking over the centrifugal clutch is (or should be!) disconnected from the transmission unit under the back seats. You can test this by confirming that when the gear lever is moved slowly from forwards to reverse easily there are no crunching noises. If it does, that's good. If it doesn't, report back! Assuming all is well so far, I'll explain what happens next......
As you accelerate the engine revs increases and the clutch passes the drive to the transmission unit. It does this in two stages, so you have a g-e-n-t-l-e pick-up of speed. As the primary pulleys begin to spin a set of centrifugal weights inside the units force the pulleys together, thereby increasing the diameter of the pulleys. As the belts aren't elastic, the diameter of the secondary pulley is correspondingly reduced and the ratio (or "gear" ratio) is increased.
In a addition to the centrifugal effect, the engine vacuum is also used to assist the transmission to change ratio, and it is here that the problem may lie. To test it, proceed as follows: Switch off and open the bonnet. Below the electric valve identify the two metal pipes running from the engine bay to the rear of the car. They should have two rubber pipes attached to them, one of which runs to the low hold valve and the other to the change up valve, near the carburettor. Mark the pipes in such a way that they cannot be confused (Tippex is useful) Now pull the pipes away from the valves and blow down one pipe at a time. You Should NOT be able to blow through the pipes, and in fact you ought to feel a distinct "blow back". If this is so, all appears well. If not, report back.
I hope this helps. Report back with your findings. If you need to contact me, I've sent my personal number via a private message to you on this Forum; check at the top of the homepage for this. Exeter.... I was born in Barnstaple...... I can feel a "weekend away" coming on......
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Jun 2, 2023 16:38:55 GMT
Post by Richard DAF Webmeister on Jun 2, 2023 16:38:55 GMT
This is good initial advice. We've heard of this very common problem/misunderstanding/query over the years from many. It sounds to me if it is vacuum related - could even be something as simple as one of the rubber vac pipes having either slipped off at the transmission end (where it's not so easy to see) - I've had that with my 33 and secured the rubber pipe with a simple jubilee clip. This is one of the reasons that Andrew refers to the "blow test".
Anyway, we're here to help one way or another. Don't give up - but I know from personal experience, how disheartening it can be when something you so want to use, just doesn't seem to want to co-operate!
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Jun 3, 2023 9:21:43 GMT
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Post by tthurlow on Jun 3, 2023 9:21:43 GMT
Thanks for your comments. I am away for a couple of days so can't look at the car. I know for sure it doesn't have a green low hold light or triangular switch. I've also not noticed a solenoid clicking in the carb either. I think mine is quite an early 44 so might it predate these things? I'll see if I can figure out what pipes you are referring to and report back. Thanks again.
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andrew
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Jun 4, 2023 7:50:24 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 4, 2023 7:50:24 GMT
It's possible, therefore, that your 44 is a very early one. If it's a pre-1970 car then my remarks about the green low hold switch don't apply, as the system worked on hydraulic pressure, as opposed to electrical switching then. The "blow down the tubes" part is still applicable though. To clarify what's needs to be checked, would you give the year suffix of the number plate?
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Jun 4, 2023 8:21:48 GMT
Post by bobdisk on Jun 4, 2023 8:21:48 GMT
I tried the blow test on my 33, and when I blow into one pipe, I can get a very minimal return from the other pipe, which I do not think is correct. There should be no return at all. . andrew knows, my 33 does not change up like it should. I found the belts were hanging loose, so tightened the adjustment, which made an improvement, but still not as good as it should be. At the moment I have had to remove the engine to replace the pushrod tubes seals,(or tubes, I have seen these tubes corroded through) following a massive oil leak, and the brake master cylinder. It leaked brake fluid out of the push rod, so I have to clean and repaint the brake pedal, interior bulkhead and drivers floorwell, and replace the soaked felt underlay. So it will be some time before I am back on the road. As Andrew says, when the 44 does have a low hold switch, it is a rocker switch, on the far left of the row of switches, and has a triangle, with a wedge shaped base printed on it. Not sure, but I think it lights green when on. It can be confused with a hazard switch on a modern car.
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Jun 4, 2023 12:31:43 GMT
Post by Richard DAF Webmeister on Jun 4, 2023 12:31:43 GMT
I wonder whether the car is perhaps the very pale green one, once owned by a member of this parish? If so, as Andrew says, it won't have the electric rocker switch (as found on late 44s) or the push button electric switch (as found on "middle age range 44s)
Once we know the reg/age, then that will be a help.
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Jun 4, 2023 21:12:34 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 4, 2023 21:12:34 GMT
it was first registered in Feb 1969, reg RDD 339G. Chassis number 569675. it is indeed pale green! I haven't had chance to have another look yet, planning on having a go tomorrow evening. The car has done less than 1000 miles since 1979 so i suspect it been unused has caused the problems.
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andrew
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Jun 5, 2023 8:12:21 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 5, 2023 8:12:21 GMT
Yes, being underused for that length of time would certainly cause a few problems! Less than 1,000 miles in 54 years equates to less than 20 miles per year-not even to the M.O.T. test station and back!
Your Daf 44 appears to be an early one, which doesn't have other an electrical low hold, nor a electrical solenoid switch on the carburettor. In your case the change-down effect is actioned by the hydraulic pressure in the brake system when the brake pedal is depressed. I suspect this valve has somehow stuck in your car, as a result of non use over many years. What would really help would be a picture of the valve in your car's engine bay, which would allow confirmation of this, now way or the other. If the valve is jammed open the transmission will be effectively "locked" in bottom ratio, so is would exhibit the symptoms you're experiencing.
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Jun 6, 2023 19:23:45 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 6, 2023 19:23:45 GMT
So i've had a further look. i have blown down both the pipes in turn that run to the rear of the car. There is resistance and then blow back so that seems ok. i have attached some photos. I am afraid i can't get them any bigger Hopefully this photo shows the valve you are referring to? i put dots on the pipes to be sure of the positions. 1 dot goes to the air filter (top pipe) 2 dots (second from top) goes to the valve on the brake solenoid switch thing-see image below 3 dots (second from bottom) goes to the valve on the brake solenoid thing switch-see image below 4 dots (bottom pipe) goes to the rear of the car i took this apart and the diaphragm inside seemed to ok. i took the arm off the the valve thinking it would come apart (then read the manual which said not to do this). Does it need to go back on in a certain position? The arm seems to move freely. Your thoughts are welcome! Many thanks!
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andrew
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Jun 6, 2023 20:01:58 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 6, 2023 20:01:58 GMT
Fascinating stuff! Your Daf 44 is a more modern one than I had thought, and has the electric low hold valve, as seen in one of your pictures. You should put the change-up valve back in the car, exactly as it was when you removed it. Helpfully someone's marked the rubber pipes with 1,2,3 and 4 dots, to indicate which pipe they should be connected to, which will help you in placing everything. Clip the bar back that connects to this valve to the accelerator linkage and you'll have the car as it was before you removed it. Would you be able to take a picture of the car's dashboard & post it? I'm beginning to think your 44 has an un-illuminated low hold switch. This will have a symbol a little like two circles, one bigger than the other, with a belt running between them. With the ignition switched on and then engine off, operating this switch should cause the low hold valve to "click"....Let's hope it does!
I'm loving this!
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Jun 6, 2023 20:12:58 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 6, 2023 20:12:58 GMT
I marked the pipes with the dots! It has the non-illuminated switch with the two circles, and the low hold valve clicks when this is operated. Does it not matter how the bar is positioned when it is connected back to the linkage? Is there a way of testing if the change up valve and the low hold valve are working?
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Jun 6, 2023 20:41:55 GMT
Post by Richard DAF Webmeister on Jun 6, 2023 20:41:55 GMT
Hi chaps, Well, have a look at this link - dafcars.proboards.com/thread/1999/rudolphAlso search on this site for "Rudolph the 44" and also "Marcus"... Several years ago, the car was owned by Marcus (who also featured on Bangers and Cash selling his 33) and it changed hands one way and another. People went through phases of giving their cars names - each to his own. Anyway, the link and others have some very interesting pictures and info... Enjoy!
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Jun 6, 2023 21:39:50 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 6, 2023 21:39:50 GMT
Thanks Richard. Very interesting. I think the car passed from Marcus to a user called 'Sigi'. It then passed to Sam Glover from Practical Classics before I bought it. I had heard from Sam it used to be owned by a Vicar so am guessing that was Marcus! Its a lovely car but is driving me slightly mad!
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andrew
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Jun 7, 2023 7:27:50 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2023 7:27:50 GMT
Does it not matter how the bar is positioned when it is connected back to the linkage? Is there a way of testing if the change up valve and the low hold valve are working? Yes, it does! I'll explain how the valve works and what it does.... When the engine is ticking over and neither the accelerator nor the brake pedals are depressed both chambers in the primary units are open to atmosphere. As the accelerator pedal is depressed the bar linking to the valve opens the valve, passing vacuum to the primary outer cylinders, which helps the change-up process. The point at which this valve opens is altered be loosening the nuts on the rod and either lengthening or shortening it. The longer the rod, the earlier the transmission begins to change up, and vice versa. The vacuum should begin to work at the point when the engine develops maximum torque, which is 2850 R.P.M. for a Daf 33, and probably the same on a 44. To adjust this one needs a rev counter and a vacuum gauge. Connect the rev counter as per instructions and connect the vacuum gauge to the pipe number three on the change-up valve. This should be the pipe running from the change-up valve to the primary unit. Now start the engine, warm it up and ENSURING THE TRANSMISSION IS IN NEUTRAL rev up the engine from within the engine bay. Note the point at which vacuum just begins to register and then check the engine speed. Change the length of the rod by only one turn at a time, as it's a sensitive adjustment. One you are satisfied the setting's correct, take the car for a run & see how it feels. If all's well, tighten two nuts on the bar, to secure the setting. If the car's still not changing up quickly enough, lengthen the rod further, but again, only one turn at a time. If the change up occurs too early, the car will stall or appear to develop a "flat spot" when accelerating. You'll know when it's set correctly, as the car will happily change up at about 25-30 mph, on a level road and the engine will be much quieter in general. I await the next instalment with interest......
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Jun 7, 2023 10:18:16 GMT
Post by tthurlow on Jun 7, 2023 10:18:16 GMT
Before i go any further please can i check that everything is plumbed in correctly as it does seem to match the diagram in the manual which would suggest the pipe i have marked M-to manifold should go to the valve controlled by the accelerator -hopefully the attachments show things more clearly.
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Jun 7, 2023 12:33:12 GMT
Post by dafdaffer on Jun 7, 2023 12:33:12 GMT
where about are based? it might be worth looking at the brake/low hold EMV is working correctly. also have you checked that brake lights are not permanently on I've had problems with the brake light switch before.
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andrew
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Jun 7, 2023 12:38:14 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 7, 2023 12:38:14 GMT
Those pipes look correctly fitted to me. They work as follows: The manifold vacuum pipe delivers the vacuum to the low-hold valve, where, if it's NOT needed to hold the transmission in a low ratio, it's passed through the pipe with three dots on it to the change-up valve. Using a vacuum gauge, and with the engine running there should always be vacuum here. As the diagram in the workshop manual shows, the outer chambers of the primary units are initially connected to atmosphere. As the valve rotates the atmospheric connection is cut and the vacuum connection is opened, thus assisting the change-up.
I've JUST thought of something no-one's mentioned; it's very unlikely but if the tubes on your primary units have become reversed then the vacuum would be forcing the transmission to change down, as opposed to assisting it to change up. It might (just might....) be the cause of your problems! Reversing the two pipes leading to the primary units would be a way of answering this, but, as I say, it's a long shot!
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Jun 7, 2023 21:25:16 GMT
Post by Richard DAF Webmeister on Jun 7, 2023 21:25:16 GMT
where about are based? it might be worth looking at the brake/low hold EMV is working correctly. also have you checked that brake lights are not permanently on I've had problems with the brake light switch before. Hi matey - good to see you back on here! I think they are down Devon way. This is a very interesting thread and a very interesting car - definitely the one that Marcus used to own. I'd momentarily forgotten that Sam Glover had also owned it. Just like your 343!
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Jun 8, 2023 8:21:59 GMT
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Post by tthurlow on Jun 8, 2023 8:21:59 GMT
Ye,down in Devon, just outside Exeter. Made some progress last night. On the low hold valve we swapped the pipe with the 3 dots on with the manifold pipe-as per the manual. It now seems to run much better and changes up much more smoothly. I'm still not convinced it's working completely as it be should though. What should I expect by way of engine braking when I push the brakes? And what should I expect when I pull the low ratio knob? Neither seem to do much but the low hold valve appears to be working as it should.
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andrew
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Jun 8, 2023 11:42:22 GMT
Post by andrew on Jun 8, 2023 11:42:22 GMT
WHATEVER YOU DO NEVER OPERATE THE LOW HOLD SWITCH ON THE DASHBOARD AT SPEEDS IN EXCESS OF 30 MPH! Disastrous damage to the transmission will result!
If the valves and transmission are correctly adjusted you should notice a distance increase in engine revs as the car slows when the brakes are gently applied from about 30 mph, until the car comes to a halt, when the transmission disconnects the engine from the wheels. If you're not noticing this it's possible the transmission's not changing down enough and you'll have trouble moving off from stationary, particularly when going up hill, as the transmission may not have come to rest in "low ratio".
The engine braking is really useful, particularly when driving around town and is saves a huge amount of wear on the brake shoes. Gentle braking is a sign of a good driver, who "reads" the road ahead, making for a smoother ride for both driver and passengers and less wear and tear on the car! In the Daf the hydraulically operated switch in the brake line operates the brake lights and the low hold valve, so both can be checked simultaneously.
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Sept 4, 2023 18:46:52 GMT
Post by dafmann on Sept 4, 2023 18:46:52 GMT
Hi :-)
I just bought a DAF 55 originally sold in Norway in 1971. My family had a DAF 66 quite a few years ago that I occationally borrow for a runabout. At that time not much interested in the technical side of things, just focused on having a groovy time. And as such this car was really fun to drive. Now, as the car will definitely need some attention it is interesting to read about how it all works. I suppose I know quite well how an engine works, however this type of transmission is a first for me.
So now I wonder if there are variations to how the transmission control system works for each new model (33, 44, 55 and 66), or if what is described in above questions and answers more or less apply to all models ?
Additionally I would appreciate suggestions as to - where to get hold of a workshop manual ? - where to get hold of spare parts like gearbox diaphrames, vacuum pipes, electrical parts, brake parts, interiors, etc. ? - interchangeability of parts/bodyparts between the different models like doors, bootlid, fenders, lights (this car has little dent in the middle of the bootlid rear/top edge that will be difficult to straighten out) ?
Best ragard from Marius in Oslo Norway
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Sept 4, 2023 20:31:02 GMT
Post by andrew on Sept 4, 2023 20:31:02 GMT
Hi, Marius,
That's quite a shopping list, but fear not, you're in the right place! Firstly, I'd recommend joining the Daf Owners' Club as it's an excellent course of information on all things Daf, and the quarterly magazine is a great publication!
All Daf cars, from the early 33s right through to the 66s (and some Volvos) use essentially the same transmission system, although there are some slight differences in how they work; the biggest difference is that the 46 and 66 have a differential, whereas 33s, 44s and 55s do not, relying on the difference in the belt ratios when cornering. 46 and 66 cars also have a De-Dion rear axle which dramatically improves the handling! There are other differences in the way the transmission receives its "instructions", although the way in which the transmission works is broadly the same, which is summarised thus:
As the car's speed increases the transmission tends to change up, assisted by the engine vacuum, governing factors being gradient, manifold depression and speed. As the car slows the transmission changes down, again assisted by the the engine vacuum. That's only a summary, though!
As to your other questions:
1/ Workshop manual for a 55? E-Bay sometimes has them, and some members of the club may have them for sale. I think I have a Haynes book if you want it! D.M. me if this is if interest.
2/ Many spare parts are available through the club-another good reason for joining- and there is a company called DafHobby in the Netherlands who also stock a huge number of parts.
3/ It's a little difficult to be specific as to the interchangeability of parts with out knowing which parts you're thinking about, suffice it to say that the "B" bodied (44, 46, 55 and 66)cars have many body parts that are interchangeable, and these are NOT interchangeable with the "A" bodied (31,32 and 33)cars.
I hope this helps!
Looking forward to seeing and hearing more about your Daf......
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Oct 26, 2023 23:02:19 GMT
Post by dafmann on Oct 26, 2023 23:02:19 GMT
Hi - and thanks for a nice "Welcome" message.
Yes - it surely is a good help to look in and read up on various topics/problems and the resolution - a vast human knowledge base. Also nice with kind of personal communication and specifics about topics and interesting activities. So far I have not found Norwegian DAF club or forum although I am sure there must be someone other than me with a DAF or Volvo variomatic type car.
Regarding joining the Daf Owners' Club - I login to these pages, even put a picture of the car in my profile. Have I become a member by registering ?
Hehe, I think the previous owner before the owner that sold me the car did some not improvements to the car. At least I was told that the rear spring was lowered by cutting off a part of it (sounds strange if the car features blade springs and not coil springs). Also the front spring setting was apparently altered by changing the torsion springs setting. I must admit it looks race'y with a low ride hight, but is it legal ?
The car actually starts very easily although takes a bit of time before the choke can be reset and the motor runs at low idling speed (seems like quite a few minutes). The seller told me not to engage forward or reverse before engine reached idling speed.
I found it strange that the car sets off by a sudden engagement/jerk from standstill. May be there is a problem with the clutch ? As far as i understand the clutch is automatic, works like a drum brake by engaging as a result of the brake pads being forced outwards by a centripetal action to press outwards on the bell housing that is connected via the driveshaft to the variomatic transmission/gear drive. The car has been stored in the sellers garage since he bought it in 2015. Is it reasonable to expect this behaviour to rectify itself after abit of usage ?
The car has not yet in my ownership been driven on the road. I Must get it MOTed first. And there are a few obvious things to sort out before that. Things to fix: bumpers (?), licence plate lights, side mirrors, safety belts, lockable door locks, wiring (at least harness the wiring loom as it is all over the place and a few loose switches), control panel for interior heating and ventilation, the above mentioned jerky drive start off, also the brakes, and possibly the variomatic. I think I will have time when I finish changing sill ++ on my 2003 Peugeot 406 and change motor oil on my very reliable 2014 Toyota.
The really amazing thing is that the car came with an extensive DAF Service manual. Very valuable to me to get some insight into the various topics of operation and servicing. It features very good photos and drawings, also exploded views of the complete car, all operations described in detail in 4 languages (Dutch, English, French and German). I already had a look at a few things, I find the clutch and variomatic transmission especially interesting. Advanced and simple at the same time. What the service manual does not have is listing of spare parts and ID/numbers.
Regarding spare parts I have seen the listing here on the forum. Do you know if there is also selling/buying across counties ?
I also looked at DafHobby. Seems there are quite a few spare parts available.
I might need some body parts. Looking into the boot it looks like the cover at the bottom (over the petrol tank ?) is rusty, also the damper mounts looks a bit frail. Might be rust underneath that I will find when I start on fixing the car. I just bought the car without checking anything - just fell in love with it.
In the profile picture you might notice a sharp bump on the rear edge of the boot lid. That is what made me think about interchangeability. Is the shape of a boot lid of a DAF 66 or Volvo 66 (which I would think is much more easy to come by) the same as that of a DAF 55 ?
Best regards.
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