pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 17, 2010 18:17:12 GMT
Ok think I can now say the coils broken. Loosing about 2V over the coil. Bat neg to coil neg Coil with ignition bypassed with a jump lead. reading 2.3V. Its obviously got a lot worse with having a charged battery. Does anyone know of any cars that would have a compatible coil pack. £30 posted to me and not available at the local motorfactors.
Oh and so is the indicator stalk thanks to my efforts at fixing the horn. It is currently bodged with electrical insulation tape untill I can get a replacement and still works if your carefull.
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 17, 2010 18:44:23 GMT
No, you can't say the coil's broken.
The only way that a coil fault could cause that is if it was so short-circuit it was taking something like 800 amps from the battery and dropping the battery voltage. At that point you wouldn't have a car, only a car fire.
Having a reading like that means there is a seriously bad resistance between the coil 've and earth. Which will be either wire from coil to dizzy (including any connectors), points (including the wire from dizzy to the points), or dizzy earth (including the earth strap I mentioned before).
To be honest, it's unlikely to be the points themselves unless they're seriously badly burned or misaligned (as in, closing at an angle so they only make contact at a small part of an edge). So that leaves the wiring, which also happens to turn out to be the problem in something like 98% of ignition faults.
A lot of garages tend to go for the "replace and see" approach because they'll be billing the owner for the parts but that doesn't mean the owner-mechanic needs to take such a brain-dead approach to diagnosis.
Apply some basic electrical theory - you really don't need anything more than Ohms Law, a voltmeter, and a reasonable idea of how a simple circuit works for these cars - and a bit of methodical diagnosis and there is nothing on these cars that can't be found and fixed.
It rarely comes down to parts in a case like this because conventional ignition parts don't suddenly fail. They tend to degrade slowly, getting harder and harder to start and running worse and worse until they eventually give up.
As for getting worse with a charged battery - nope, that's just the battery itself holding voltage better under the load of the coil, which tends to show faults up more clearly than if it's so flat it's dropping as soon as you turn anything on!
Edited to add: If you're determined to replace a (probably) perfectly good coil then any "normal" (round can with terminals on it) 12v one will be fine - it's only a lot of wire in a tin can and there's no computer to throw a wobbly if the primary current is slightly out.
Edited again: Just done the sums roughly and it woould only need to draw about 240 amps to show that voltage with typical "good" points resistance. That's still a car fire, though!
|
|
Bob Scrivens
Likes DAFs
Ex owner of the green machine
Posts: 534
|
Post by Bob Scrivens on Jun 17, 2010 22:11:11 GMT
Paul has the outer case of the coil got a good earth connection, check with your Ohms meter, between coil case and battery earth lead? Stick a plug into the coil HT connector and put plug body to earth you will then be able to see the spark generated, then apply power to the LT terminal on the coil, open the points or put a bit of cardboard between them. then with a wire connected to earth dab the free end on the coil connection going to the points then the connection at the dizzy and finally to the moving contact of the points, each time you take the wire off the connection you should get a big blue spark at the plug, if you dont the you have found where the fault is. Good luck
Bob.
|
|
daf44
Likes DAFs
Posts: 572
|
Post by daf44 on Jun 17, 2010 22:11:19 GMT
hi paul. 12v triumph coils and 12v daf coils can be swapped easily to test if they work properly a lot of car manuals list the coil resistances in the spec section. just test with a multi-tester. if you can bring the car down here for a day, i have testing gear and quite like doing electrics. just bring wire and connectors with you. i will even supply the coffee. paul44
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 18, 2010 8:14:14 GMT
hi paul. 12v triumph coils and 12v daf coils can be swapped easily to test if they work properly a lot of car manuals list the coil resistances in the spec section. just test with a multi-tester. if you can bring the car down here for a day, i have testing gear and quite like doing electrics. just bring wire and connectors with you. i will even supply the coffee. paul44 If I could get the blasted thing started I would. I am in wales at the moment by the way. I had already tried swapping over the 2 coils to no avail but had been told that as the DAF engine was a lot smaller the coil would be less powerfull
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 18, 2010 10:54:28 GMT
I had already tried swapping over the 2 coils to no avail but had been told that as the DAF engine was a lot smaller the coil would be less powerfull Whoever told you that clearly doesn't have much idea how an ignition system works. All conventional ignition coils have very similar power (or energy) levels. You only get a meaningful increase in energy with electronic ignition. Secondary voltages can vary but the voltage needed to fire is determined by well defined factors: (1) the gap at the spark plugs (bigger gap needs higher voltage) (2) the pressure in the cylinders (more pressure needs higher voltage (3) the mixture strength (composition of the gas the spark is in) (4) temperature (not enough effect to worry about) The thing that really varies between different coils is their ability to continue making the required voltage at high speed (more cylinders or faster engine speed). The Triumph does have twice as many cylinders but a coil that couldn't produce sparks fast enough for 4 cylinders at starting / idle speed would also be unable to get a 2 cylinder over about 1600 revs. Put the other way round, the Daf coil can happily fire 2 cylinders at 6000 revs (100 sparks a second), so it will also be able to fire 4 cylinders at 3000 revs (also 100 sparks a second). So it's not going to have a problem giving about 15 sparks a second at idle!
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 20, 2010 13:47:58 GMT
Ok played for ages today and have replaced every wire in the low tension circuit past the ignition. Still losing 1/2 a volt from the ignition and 1/2 a volt over the points. My conclusion the expensive new points that I bought and have spent ages setting, re setting, sanding, resetting, sanding, resetting all to no avail are duds!!
|
|
Bob Scrivens
Likes DAFs
Ex owner of the green machine
Posts: 534
|
Post by Bob Scrivens on Jun 20, 2010 22:33:08 GMT
Hi Paul did you try the earth wire item I mentioned? it should have indicated were the problem exists, if you did not get a spark from the lead out of the coil the coil is u/s or HT lead. Let us know what you found?
Bob
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 21, 2010 7:54:12 GMT
Hi bob must have missed your original post. I will try that. I do get a yellowish spark from the end of the HT leads using the screwdriver method but nothing at the plug itself.
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 22, 2010 15:49:07 GMT
Now done as Bob suggested. Nothing no spark at the plug at all.
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 22, 2010 16:11:30 GMT
Dopey here got in typed that and realised they hadn't been earthing the plug. Result of test done properly is coil produces spark. Blue in colour but not what I would call fat. But then again im not really sure how large the spark should be. I would describe as similar to the stricker spark on a brand new gas cooker if that helps
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 22, 2010 17:00:10 GMT
That sounds like plenty Paul.
|
|
stefan
Likes DAFs
If it isn't broken fix it till it is
Posts: 1,282
|
Post by stefan on Jun 22, 2010 21:23:34 GMT
That should do it, it dose not have to be like bolt of lightning
|
|
Bob Scrivens
Likes DAFs
Ex owner of the green machine
Posts: 534
|
Post by Bob Scrivens on Jun 22, 2010 22:09:44 GMT
Hi Paul, if the timing is right and the fuel is getting to the Carb you should get some sign of life from the engine with thart spark.
Bob.
|
|
|
Post by dafdaffer on Jun 22, 2010 22:25:38 GMT
Box of matches and petrol should get it firing;D pour some juice down the carb (not orange) and see how that does.. fuel and a spark = bang at least
|
|
33grinder
Likes DAFs
CHPD* sufferer (*Compulsive Heap Purchasing Disorder)
Posts: 2,905
|
Post by 33grinder on Jun 22, 2010 23:54:03 GMT
What's your filters like Paul? I'm thinking a blocked air filter perhaps, if you've fuel and spark what else is there (other than timing)?
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 23, 2010 7:34:41 GMT
There is no spark.
Something in the dizzy circuit is killing the spark
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 23, 2010 11:40:32 GMT
Tried again today. Tried starting with the air filter removed still nothing. Cleaned the contacts again. Checked all the wiring. Anyway taken a load of pics to see if theres something obvious that im missing Internals of dizzy cap. side on view of dizzy shows what I was saying about the points not seating properly. I just cant make them Shows wiring connections Dizzy cap closed all HT leads connected as says in book Showing internals of carb fuel residue visible and smellable. Close up shows minor damage around edge of diaphragm. Diaphragm in place and air filter tempoairly removed to aid airflow. Oh I also did the timing today which was 5 degrees out now set as the book says to 10 degrees before TDC
|
|
Bob Scrivens
Likes DAFs
Ex owner of the green machine
Posts: 534
|
Post by Bob Scrivens on Jun 23, 2010 21:30:14 GMT
Hi Paul you just need to check your HT circuit, take plugs out of cylinders, connect one plug to coil HT and check spark on that when, if OK there reconnect to HT to dizzy and turn engine to TDC on No 1, remove LT wire off dizzy to coil and flash it to earth with the power on to ignition. You should now get a spark at the No 1 plug if not find out where you are loosing it? You are better to check one system at a time and mmaake sure that is working OK before starting on the fuel side.
Bob
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 26, 2010 14:13:10 GMT
Theres no crack in the cap. It was just a trick of the light.
I have had some success today. Fidling with the ignition circuit. I replaced the earth strap and routed my dizzy power supply direct like on Spunkymonkeys. I then checked for spark, we know have a big fat blue spark at every plug. I checked the timing which was 180degrees out and reset it. So we know have spark and at the right time on all cylinders. I think I now have to rule out ignition as to why it wont start still not firing. My next thought is to replace the carb diaphragm, can anybody supply one? From the way it spluttered a few times after starting properly and then died afterwards refusing to start. I think it is more likely to be fuelling than anything more serious.
Im chuffed anyway Ive at least part sorted it.
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 26, 2010 14:35:10 GMT
Are you 100% certain that the timing was 180 out? That can only be caused by changing the plug lead order or physically removing the distributor drive gear and putting back in a different place.
It must have been right before all this happened because it was running. Assuming you hadn't mixed up the plug leads while checking stuff (or removed the dizzy, the dizzy pedestal and the drive gear) it should still be right within the limits of what you can turn the distributor, which is nowhere near 180 degrees.
The carb diaphragm may or may not be split from thise photos but it should fire even if it is - you'd just suffer a very bad idle and awful responsiveness when you open the throttle.
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 26, 2010 14:40:27 GMT
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 26, 2010 15:16:42 GMT
there are two timing marks on my ring gear, and I had timed it to the wrong one. Hence when thought No1 was TDC rotor arm was pointing at number 3. Result it looked 180degrees out. When timing to the correct mark it all looks right. It is now correctly timed anyway and is sparking . It still wont start so theres got to be something else going on
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 26, 2010 15:47:44 GMT
All the same, Paul, even if there are two marks on the engine 180 degrees out from each other, the timing was about right before all this started because the engine was running. To time it to the other mark would mean turning the distributor body a full 90 degrees away from the position it was running fine in before - which I'm pretty sure you would have noticed doing, even assuming there's that much movement available which I don't think there is without pulling the vacuum pipe off the dizzy!
The only other way it could end out by 180 degrees of engine rotation is if the distributor drive gear in the block was removed after it ran last, rotated by 90 degrees, and replaced in the new (wrong) position.
In your photos above, the distributor is in roughly the "normal" position for one of these engines and the plug leads are in the correct positions. So, unless you moved it a full 1/4 turn after taking those photos, so that the vacuum capsule is pointing back between the coil and fuel pump, then it should still have been near enough right!
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 26, 2010 19:04:12 GMT
Ahh you misunderstand me. I was trying to time it to the wrong mk when I thought it was 180 out. I couldn't adjust it right. I then found the right mk and set it with a multimetre
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 30, 2010 12:29:28 GMT
We have signs of life. Replaced the carb diaphragm and Bruce now splutters. If you pour petrol down the carb it even runs for a couple of seconds. Thwe fuel pump appears to be asthmatic and thus unable to draw fuel up the tank through empty lines thus I think a replacement is in order.
Yippee Bruce is not dead
|
|
Onne
Likes DAFs
Posts: 637
|
Post by Onne on Jun 30, 2010 12:31:21 GMT
You sure there is fuel in the tank?
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Jun 30, 2010 12:39:27 GMT
You sure there is fuel in the tank? I wondered that. I thought it was a third full but noticed the fuel gauge wasn't registering. I then poured a gallon in and still no difference
|
|
spunkymonkey
Likes DAFs
Currently waltzing Matilda
Posts: 3,482
|
Post by spunkymonkey on Jun 30, 2010 13:13:24 GMT
Those pumps were never designed to draw up through empty lines using the starter - that's why they have the hand priming lever on them. It gives a longer stroke to the diaphragm than the cam does so pumps more effectively, and without hammering the battery. If it really won't lift it even hand pumping, strip the pump before condemning it - there could simply be dirt caught in one of the valves. Paddocks also do repair kits if needed including new diaphragm, valves and seals. These cars were made to repair components rather than replace. Replacing whole assemblies for the sake of a gasket or valve or whatever is the evil mark of moderns
|
|
pauldaf44
Likes DAFs
Totally addicted to quirky tat
Posts: 2,068
|
Post by pauldaf44 on Aug 15, 2010 17:53:59 GMT
Woohoo its running. Although I may be able to describe myself as a jammy !"%£$ after changing this and it falling apart as it was removed. If that had gone one more mile it would have destroyed the front of the car. Worst part that part was put on for the last MOT makes me very dubious of buying parts of ebay again.
|
|